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General_Jack_D_Ripper #1 Posted 13 June 2020 - 10:05 AM

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Hello,

 

I am not quite happy with how the collector vehicles work right now.

So let's begin a journey, first, we will check if it had any impact on vehicle usage after one month. Then we will discuss what that means for said vehicles and to finish I will talk about ideas how to change stuff.

 

I have some time today, but not so much that I would look at every collector vehicle, so I will chose simply a few of them, which come to mind. I will try not to look at vehicles which were drastically nerfed at the same time like Panzer 1c. I will use EU server stats from https://wot-news.com/

 

Low Tiers

In low Tiers I want to look at the classes which are now removed from the tech tree till Tier IV/V. Also I will check one tech tree vehicle remaining to control

Battles in one-hundred-thousands

 

Spoiler

 

First of all: Some of you may have spotted that I have chosen special tanks for Tier IV. Just to show what happens to unpopular, or weak tanks, once they have become collectors vehicles. On the other hand, a very popular Matilda is played even more often.

 

My thoughts about low tier:

Tanks which are in the tech tree are (in regards to numbers) dominant on the battlefield, while tank which got removed are already played much less often. These means that in low tiers you have battlefields which mainly consists of light and the odd medium tanks. This destroys the variety. But it also has an impact on new players (do not forget, this change was made with new players in mind): New players learn new classes in mid tiers and learn how to fight certain classes in mid tiers. While up until now, the learning curve started quite high but steadily, this changed. The learning curve starts a bit lower, but since the same knwoledge is needed in Tier V, it gets a lot steeper around Tier IV. I would say it might resemble a wall. Maybe made out of bricks.

 

 

Mid Tiers

For Mid Tiers I will only use one tank per Tier and on top of that will try to choose one which I have pleasant memories of driving in. if available. So a "better" vehicle in my mind,

Battles in one-million

 

Spoiler

 

My thoughts on Mid Tier:

Strong/popular vehicles are less influenced. This is a nice thing. Not so many vehicles were removed in mid tiers, therefore the loss ways less. It will have little effect on the variety, and nearly no effect on the learning curve. If the numbers of May can be trusted even these collector vehicles will start their journey into obscurity. It does not help, that they are less visible and hide behind a button which opens another less well-arranged menu.

 

 

High Tiers

Now for the high tier tanks I will take my time, and do each of them. Yes, you have read correctly, I will do each and every high tier collectors vehicle.

Battles in one-hundred-thousand

 

Spoiler

 

My thoughts on High Tier:

I think it is not quite clear yet, what to expect. The T-62A behaves really odd, while the others stay more or less the same. I think these High Tier tanks might profit from being collectors vehicles, since especially new players get the opportunity to select a second high tier vehicle (from a different class) upon researching Tier X. Which is a very nice thing.

 

 

Conclusion

We sill have not enought date to make a 100% accurate prediction, especially since people tried out the "new" collector vehicles in May, which is our first month of collector vehicle date -> therefore it may(pun not intended) have a way higher usage. But the first month of collector vehicles already shows a trend. While top tier vehicles may get new attention or at least stay as popular as they are, low tier vehicles have little to offer.

Seasoned players may chose a few low/mid tier vehicles to earn money/ club seals while newcomers while not profit from these vehicles at all.

 

How to change things

It's simple, we kill the Batman.

But before we do that, we have to change how Collector Vehicles work.

 

My idea is as follows:

Collector vehicles may train crews from different tanks of the same type, but crew-training gets reduced with higher tiers.

Tier II 100% crew training if the crew is not trained to this tank

gradually declines to

Tier X 50% crew training if the crew is not trained to this tank

 

Why 50%? Because of the daily bonus.

Why reduced in high Tiers?

Collector vehicles may work in high tiers. They should not rival reward tanks for veterans. New players in high tiers should also not use these as crewtrainers, but alternatives. But they do not need to start with 75% crew if they have a crew of the same class.

Why 100% in lowest Tier?

You want to populate that tier with different tanks, so newcomers actually have an understanding of different tank classes.

Also Newcomers may use collector vehicles as crewtrainers ( example Tier IV TD crew on Tier 2 TD), while it is not so feasible to veterans because of the low XP in low tiers.

 

 

YOU

What do you think?

Is there a problem?

Might there be a problem?

And if so, how to solve this?


Edited by General_Jack_D_Ripper, 13 June 2020 - 10:08 AM.


Kdingo #2 Posted 13 June 2020 - 10:17 AM

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Not sure about it being a problem as it is right now.
Low tier problems/fluctuations are quite often down to players just grinding through asap while not enjoying them much, there for the interest to play collectors tank, or any low tier tank, is rather low.
Yes there are some who enjoy the lower tiers, for various reasons, but i doubt the majority does.
I ended up free exping any new tank line to tier 5, sometimes tier 4, cause anything below that is just not my cup of tea.

What i am more concerned with is how those collector vehicles are treated in the future in regards of balancing, buffs/nerfs/powercreep adjustment. They may end up neglecting those tanks even more then others.

General_Jack_D_Ripper #3 Posted 13 June 2020 - 10:22 AM

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View PostKdingo, on 13 June 2020 - 10:17 AM, said:

What i am more concerned with is how those collector vehicles are treated in the future in regards of balancing, buffs/nerfs/powercreep adjustment. They may end up neglecting those tanks even more then others.

 

That thought came to my head, but then I remembered, that fixing balance issues (E-100, KV-3, KV-1S, Panzer Ic) usually takes WG years for regular tech tree tanks(brand new line five months later, at least that's what they used to do).

So, it does not seem to really be a problem, if balancing takes WG years anyways.



Bulldog_Drummond #4 Posted 13 June 2020 - 10:23 AM

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View PostKdingo, on 13 June 2020 - 09:17 AM, said:

Not sure about it being a problem as it is right now.
Low tier problems/fluctuations are quite often down to players just grinding through asap while not enjoying them much, there for the interest to play collectors tank, or any low tier tank, is rather low.
Yes there are some who enjoy the lower tiers, for various reasons, but i doubt the majority does.
I ended up free exping any new tank line to tier 5, sometimes tier 4, cause anything below that is just not my cup of tea.

What i am more concerned with is how those collector vehicles are treated in the future in regards of balancing, buffs/nerfs/powercreep adjustment. They may end up neglecting those tanks even more then others.

 

Now that Collectors tanks have been placed in the Hall of Bright Carvings I think that WG will let the dust gradually cover them and would be quite surprised to see any changes made to them in future except as part of some game-wide change.



Bordhaw #5 Posted 13 June 2020 - 10:46 AM

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View PostGeneral_Jack_D_Ripper, on 13 June 2020 - 09:05 AM, said:

YOU

What do you think?

Is there a problem?

Might there be a problem?

And if so, how to solve this?

 

This is where WG has put the trash or tanks they don't know whether to buff or nerf.

Eventually, when everyone has forgotten about the Collector Vehicles, WG will just quietly remove them. 



Slyspy #6 Posted 13 June 2020 - 12:25 PM

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Nobody ever played the Grant intending to keep it. Not so with the Matilda.

Balc0ra #7 Posted 13 June 2020 - 12:47 PM

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Tho universal crew slots, even with no 1.5x bonus was always something we hoped for. But WG did give a reason for why they chose not to. I can't find that Q&A atm where they did go into details why they did not give them that option.

 

View PostKdingo, on 13 June 2020 - 10:17 AM, said:

What i am more concerned with is how those collector vehicles are treated in the future in regards of balancing, buffs/nerfs/powercreep adjustment. They may end up neglecting those tanks even more then others.

 

I doubt it. Unless they claim like with the UK lights that they have too few playing them to get solid data on what to change. I suspect they will be on the lists on how they perform or not like always. But some of them will see a massive drop in usages from new players vs those that already had them. Tho going by a recent reddit topic, the Ke-Ho has seen a spike in popularity as a new padder tank for alts due to the fast ROF. So time will tell.

 

Tho one aspect that can be promising with this as WG did mention, is the aspect of adding tanks they are not sure where to place in the tech trees. Or even other tanks considered or tested for the old EU tech tree to go there. Inc the 90mm Chaffee, or even make the return of the 122-54 easier that were 2 examples they did add.

 

 

 



Corrupted_Pling #8 Posted 13 June 2020 - 01:11 PM

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These tanks completely pointless.

 

Would have been better if you could move crews into them



Bulldog_Drummond #9 Posted 13 June 2020 - 01:14 PM

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View PostSlyspy, on 13 June 2020 - 11:25 AM, said:

Nobody ever played the Grant intending to keep it. Not so with the Matilda.

 

I repurchased both Grant and Lee and have them as keepers.  

They are very effective tanks if like Lootenant Briggs you know your limitations



Gruff_ #10 Posted 13 June 2020 - 03:46 PM

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We won't see an impact yet but 3 months down the line figures will drop off.  People that already have and enjoy them will continue playing them, people who were grinding through them will likely drop them to go back to the tech tree journey.

 

New players are unlikely to be aware of their existence and will be funnelled up into their tech tree journey, which is the intention of WG just to get people to playing higher tiers, which is more profitable for them, as premium time / tanks are needed for those who don't have the time to play mid tier for credits.

 

Hiding the variety of tanks away to "simplify" things for new players is BS.



TheJ4ckal #11 Posted 13 June 2020 - 04:15 PM

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What you are completely forgetting, is that to run a successful business/game you need to keep things fresh.

Moving some of the deadwood and straightening up the tech trees goes s long way towards doing this and in turn helping the game appeal to new beginner/casual players.

All your overly detailed musings are from the point of view of someone who just harks after the old days and doesn't like change.

Who cares if some old tanks get forgotten. They are still there and the people that like them will play them. Of course it will subtly change what tanks are played in a chart of statistics. But that's life and things change.

I wouldn't waste time worrying about it. Enjoy the masses of stuff in the game you can change and adapt.



undutchable80 #12 Posted 13 June 2020 - 04:23 PM

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Tier 6+ should have turned into Reward tanks to make them special. Now, what's the point? 

ZlatanArKung #13 Posted 13 June 2020 - 05:29 PM

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View PostBulldog_Drummond, on 13 June 2020 - 01:14 PM, said:

 

I repurchased both Grant and Lee and have them as keepers.  

They are very effective tanks if like Lootenant Briggs you know your limitations

How epic would a 3-man Grant-Grant-Grant toon be?



Bulldog_Drummond #14 Posted 13 June 2020 - 06:43 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 13 June 2020 - 04:29 PM, said:

How epic would a 3-man Grant-Grant-Grant toon be?

 

Pretty decent I would have thought

With 170 pen APCR rapid fire 6 lbr guns the toon could take down an OI in short order.

Though it might be a bit like that scene in 'Fury' where most of the Sherman toon gets whacked by the Tiger



Private_Miros #15 Posted 13 June 2020 - 06:47 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 13 June 2020 - 04:29 PM, said:

How epic would a 3-man Grant-Grant-Grant toon be?

 

It would be grand.



Bulldog_Drummond #16 Posted 13 June 2020 - 06:54 PM

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There was also an experimental version of the Grant which used compressed air hoses to cross minefields

 

A Crew of 7, Really? 30 Photos of the M3 Lee/Grant Medium Tank



General_Jack_D_Ripper #17 Posted 13 June 2020 - 08:27 PM

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View PostTheJ4ckal, on 13 June 2020 - 04:15 PM, said:

All your overly detailed musings are from the point of view of someone who just harks after the old days and doesn't like change.

 

If you do not take the time to read my text, then please refrain from assuming things.

Because when you assume things...

 

I would like you to pick an argument like: 

"But it also has an impact on new players (do not forget, this change was made with new players in mind): New players learn new classes in mid tiers and learn how to fight certain classes in mid tiers. While up until now, the learning curve started quite high but steadily, this changed. The learning curve starts a bit lower, but since the same knowledge is needed in Tier V, it gets a lot steeper around Tier IV."

And explain why it is wrong.

And not just telling me, that I do not like change.

Thank you.


Edited by General_Jack_D_Ripper, 13 June 2020 - 08:33 PM.


me10000 #18 Posted 01 July 2020 - 03:31 PM

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I fully agree with this. Collectors' Vehicles as they are have basically no place in the game right now, as there is almost zero incentive to play with them. True that the higher the tier, the higher the incentive, and some are actually playable, but for the mid to lower tiers the result will almost certainly be loss of variety. A new player will simply be confused as to what he should do with a Collectors' Vehicle, so there is strictly no benefit. 

saxsan4 #19 Posted 01 July 2020 - 04:44 PM

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yup I agree, some of my favourite tanks were revamped such as the archer and medium 1

 

I still play the medium 1 often though

 

I think they should give some sort of bonus but I dont think allowing crew retrain is good since it will harm premium tank sales

 

How about collectors tanks don't have any repair costs,  but still all the other costs involved such as ammo and consumables to make them more appealing 



PowJay #20 Posted 01 July 2020 - 05:44 PM

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I read some of what you said, and did not digest it all, I will admit, but the thing I do have to agree with is that most of these "collectors" vehicles will be ignored- at least in low tiers. Why?

Simply because most players (including me) will rush (or at least prioritise) the higher tiers the low-tier collectors vehicles will not be at all attractive. WHY buy a low-tier vehicle when you struggle with credits anyway? Why buy a collectors vehicle when you need an extra crew? Why buy a collectors vehicle when you need that hard-earned Free XP to upgrade the gun on your Tier VII so that you don't get owned in 50 battles before you are upgraded enough to be competitive?

 

Like me, I would imagine that quite a lot of famous players would play to reach famous tanks according to their nationality and area of interest (for the most part) say, WWII or Cold War. Why are they going to bother even looking at these less important and even non-existent, vehicles when they have their eyes on the prize. There is only one significant reason... They see them being played and doing well. Or they would be seen if anyone was playing them at all.

 

I have quite a number of lower tier vehicles, many of which I didn't even realise were now Collectors. I don't play them because I am playing (almost exclusively) tier VI+ for Battle Pass (and Object 260 missions) and VII+ for Chimera missions. I have hardly touched tier IV recently, where I will often drop down when I am having a bad day.

 

So how is anyone going to see any of those vehicles in action and think "I gotta get me one of those"?

 

It seems like WG were pandering to the masses who own these vehicles (which was the right thing to do), but they are going to become as rare as hens' teeth in the game. Looking at the ones I DON'T own, (lower tiers) there are a couple that are not bad, but I didn't do well with them enough to consider buying them back. 

 

The German ones I own are both of the Marders (EXCELLENT TDs), the Hetzer, The Pz III/IV (a great tier V med) and the Toaster- which I am so close to 3 MoE with and the PzIC (enough said). I don't want any of the others at any tier.

The Soviet ones I own are the SU-85B (awesome machine) and the KV-85 which just needs that extra couple of degrees of gun depression and I would actually play it again. With the exception of the T-62A (but I suck at tier X) I don't really want any of the others.

 

I have the T67, T71DA and M7 and don't want ANY other US ones. I also only have the G1R with NO interest in ANY of the other French ones.

I have the superb Archer and Alecto. I certainly don't want any of the other UK ones.

 

Of the three remaining nations. I have the Ke-Ho and Type 95 Heavy and have no interest in any of the others.

 

So that is 15 that I consider well worth playing- even though a couple are unpopular. The rest are just clutter and I can't see anyone buying many of these vehicles when we take into account the considerations above.






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