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Rati_Festa #361 Posted 30 June 2020 - 03:20 PM

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View Postchainreact0r, on 30 June 2020 - 02:14 PM, said:

There is no way to rig the game in such a way that nobody wins and nobody loses. Rigging is by definition done for/against somebody/something.

Even if they rigged the game to be perfectly balanced, it would still be rigged for bad players and against good players.

The only way to achieve unbiased rigging where everybody is affected equally, is by not rigging at all.

 

Well it depends on what you are implying by the word "rigging", you can "rig" a game to change a result, you can also "rig" a game by changing someone's experience. Jabster pointed out that another game that had potentially dropped unicums in premium content so people which were spenders witnessed games where premium content was used to it maximum potential.

 

So for example if I am stuck on a spotting mission and I have it picked in my campaigns, WG keep putting really good players in ELC's and Lt432 in my team ( or enemies ) that wouldn't be "random" at all, it would be very hard to detect.

 

That would obviously affect results... but be extremely hard to detect.

 


Edited by Rati_Festa, 30 June 2020 - 03:21 PM.


NUKLEAR_SLUG #362 Posted 30 June 2020 - 03:53 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 29 June 2020 - 05:40 PM, said:

I wouldn't ask for any proof because the very notion is absurd.

Saying MM is definitely not rigged at least has a counter point - despite what the fully qualified data analysts would have you believe.

 

Nobody is saying the game is rigged against them - if you had actually bothered to read some of the posts here before flapping your chops you would see that the discussion is relating to whether, or not, MM is occasionally rigged.

I understand reading is difficult for some, but try & keep up eh?

 

Exactly, it's an extraordinary claim that would require equally extraordinary evidence to support. WG have outlined how their game works and it doesn't require extraordinary evidence to support their claim because the claim they're making is not remarkable. Consequently there is no requirement to 'prove that they're not rigging it'. It can be accepted at face value just as if I told you the sun would rise tomorrow you would not demand I prove that it will because it's not an extraordinary claim to

say so.

 

As it happens tho, all of the evidence that has been collected to date from various people, while only representing a small section of games played, only supports WG and their position. Nobody has ever to my knowledge provided any to date that refutes it so since we have been given no reason to disbelieve WG and the only evidence that does exist only serves to support them we can continue to take their position at face value, so the only ones with a burden of proof here are those that are trying to argue that some form of rigging does exist.

 

As far as the claim being made that WG might only rig games at certain times so that's why you can't see it, well that's still irrelevant. We're still able to take the WG claim at face value, the only collected evidence still only supports that the mechanics are as described and you still have zero evidence to suggest anything to the contrary and burden of proof is still in your lap to provide anything to indicate anybody should think otherwise.



Dwigt #363 Posted 30 June 2020 - 05:01 PM

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Hello everyone, 

Having read some of the posts here, I was really interested in some of your claims.

As an economist and a competitive gamer myself I can explain why you feel that the games are rigged which is not true for many reasons. You can agree or disagree, but I'm trying to give a logical explanation.

- There's a statistical explanation for the "skill" distribution in games in general. The most common distribution in competitive games or in life, would be a normal distribution represented on a Bell Curve. You can check the ranks distribution in other games and you will see that most of the players will be around the median ranks.

- Second, in a 15v15 game, why would the game choose 1 player out of the 29 and then decide to rig the battle against him. Why not chose another one from the same team and rig the battle in his favor.

- In my honest opinion, a good player can not carry a game on his own in a 15v15 battle. It can happen, I've seen some crazy comebacks :teethhappy: but most of the time when a team gets a 2 3 kills advantage they will have more firepower, more chance to flank and push the enemy team.

And finally, if you feel that you're loosing too many battles in a row, take a break and comeback. Trust me it helps!

 

Have a good day folks and take care!

 

 

 



Erwin_Von_Braun #364 Posted 30 June 2020 - 06:06 PM

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View Postchainreact0r, on 30 June 2020 - 05:56 AM, said:

Let's see. I honestly wish the [edited]who think the game is rigged would actually have the game rigged against them.

The people who think the game is rigged fall in the category of people thinking the mm is occasionally rigged, although there have been a couple of snowflakes here who claimed it is in fact rigged against them cause they are not paying premium or whatever. Seems to me like what i said makes sense and is in concordance to what was said in 18 pages. If you can't keep up, just remember that brain damage is still damage, so congrats you are a unicum.

 

Secondly, i said i wish the people who firmly believe the game is rigged should have it so just so. Then they would have no more reason to play and we would cleanse the playerbase. Trust me when i say that those tin foil hatters are the people who are most likely to ruin games by using xvm, suiciding at the start, going to drown when they miss 3 shots cause they "figured out" that it's one of the lost games etc. They are even likely to use illegal mods since they think that's the only way to overcome the rigging.

 

We certainly don't need that trash in this game and i think it would be poetic justice if WG would actually rig the game against them just cause they are stupid. That's obviously not going to happen, but the point of my post was to express my hate and disgust at how stupid "rig claimers" are.

 

Maybe take your bad mood somewhere else?

 

17:07 Added after 1 minute

View PostDwigt, on 30 June 2020 - 04:01 PM, said:

Hello everyone, 

Having read some of the posts here, I was really interested in some of your claims.

As an economist and a competitive gamer myself I can explain why you feel that the games are rigged which is not true for many reasons. You can agree or disagree, but I'm trying to give a logical explanation.

- There's a statistical explanation for the "skill" distribution in games in general. The most common distribution in competitive games or in life, would be a normal distribution represented on a Bell Curve. You can check the ranks distribution in other games and you will see that most of the players will be around the median ranks.

- Second, in a 15v15 game, why would the game choose 1 player out of the 29 and then decide to rig the battle against him. Why not chose another one from the same team and rig the battle in his favor.

- In my honest opinion, a good player can not carry a game on his own in a 15v15 battle. It can happen, I've seen some crazy comebacks :teethhappy: but most of the time when a team gets a 2 3 kills advantage they will have more firepower, more chance to flank and push the enemy team.

And finally, if you feel that you're loosing too many battles in a row, take a break and comeback. Trust me it helps!

 

Have a good day folks and take care!

 

 

 

Well, seeing as we have a member of WG Staff here, perhaps we could get a definitive answer.

Do WG make use of the part of the patent that is under discussion here?

 

17:09 Added after 2 minute

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 30 June 2020 - 02:53 PM, said:

 

Exactly, it's an extraordinary claim that would require equally extraordinary evidence to support. WG have outlined how their game works and it doesn't require extraordinary evidence to support their claim because the claim they're making is not remarkable. Consequently there is no requirement to 'prove that they're not rigging it'. It can be accepted at face value just as if I told you the sun would rise tomorrow you would not demand I prove that it will because it's not an extraordinary claim to

say so.

 

As it happens tho, all of the evidence that has been collected to date from various people, while only representing a small section of games played, only supports WG and their position. Nobody has ever to my knowledge provided any to date that refutes it so since we have been given no reason to disbelieve WG and the only evidence that does exist only serves to support them we can continue to take their position at face value, so the only ones with a burden of proof here are those that are trying to argue that some form of rigging does exist.

 

As far as the claim being made that WG might only rig games at certain times so that's why you can't see it, well that's still irrelevant. We're still able to take the WG claim at face value, the only collected evidence still only supports that the mechanics are as described and you still have zero evidence to suggest anything to the contrary and burden of proof is still in your lap to provide anything to indicate anybody should think otherwise.

The data collected was done so by folk who had already made up their minds (I've read the reports).

How anyone can draw a definitive conclusion based on a biased assessment of limited data is absurd.

 

17:15 Added after 8 minute

View PostPrivate_Miros, on 29 June 2020 - 05:17 PM, said:

 

If they claim MM is rigged they claim it is rigged against or for them. You cannot rig MM in a way that isn't for or against individuals. Just like above, if you rig anything in a battle, you will always affect both the individuals as well as the teams.

There are two teams of 15 (assuming no GB's) - if MM were to be rigged, it affects multiple people at the same time so I can't really see how it affects the individual at the same time.

A little Schrödinger related paradox for you to solve.

 

As Rati said, maybe try reading the post you're replying to thoroughly first before spouting such nonsense.



NUKLEAR_SLUG #365 Posted 30 June 2020 - 06:15 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 30 June 2020 - 06:06 PM, said:

Well, seeing as we have a member of WG Staff here, perhaps we could get a definitive answer.

Do WG make use of the part of the patent that is under discussion here?

 

If you're attempting to argue the possibility of WG having a secret rigging algorithm that to date has remained undetectable why would you ask someone who would clearly have a vested interest in denying its existence? Do you treat any answer he would give you with any credibility one way or the other? 



Private_Miros #366 Posted 30 June 2020 - 06:20 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 30 June 2020 - 05:06 PM, said:

17:15 Added after 8 minute

There are two teams of 15 (assuming no GB's) - if MM were to be rigged, it affects multiple people at the same time so I can't really see how it affects the individual at the same time.

A little Schrödinger related paradox for you to solve.

 

If you rig anything in a battle, 30 individuals are affected.

 

Not really a paradox.

 

Unless everyone is affected equally each battle. At which point it's not rigging (basically: RNG is such a feature).


Edited by Private_Miros, 30 June 2020 - 06:23 PM.


NUKLEAR_SLUG #367 Posted 30 June 2020 - 06:21 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 30 June 2020 - 06:06 PM, said:

The data collected was done so by folk who had already made up their minds (I've read the reports).

How anyone can draw a definitive conclusion based on a biased assessment of limited data is absurd.

 

Whether they investigated it with a preconceived idea of what it would show has no bearing on the result. The data shows what it shows and its only ever shown that the game mechanics operate as described by WG.

 

Counterpoint, nobody has managed to provide any data that does not fit within the described game mechanics whether they believe those mechanics are rigged or not



Erwin_Von_Braun #368 Posted 30 June 2020 - 06:25 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 30 June 2020 - 05:21 PM, said:

 

Whether they investigated it with a preconceived idea of what it would show has no bearing on the result.

 

 

Are you kidding me?

Biased assessment simply cannot be trusted.

Look hard enough at any data set and you will see what you want to see.

 

17:31 Added after 6 minute

View PostPrivate_Miros, on 30 June 2020 - 05:20 PM, said:

 

If you rig anything in a battle, 30 individuals are affected.

 

Not really a paradox.

 

Now you're just talking semantics - the last resort of someone who has nothing else to say.

17:34 Added after 8 minute

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 30 June 2020 - 05:15 PM, said:

 

If you're attempting to argue the possibility of WG having a secret rigging algorithm that to date has remained undetectable why would you ask someone who would clearly have a vested interest in denying its existence? Do you treat any answer he would give you with any credibility one way or the other? 

Any answer they gave would be treated with somewhat less skepticism than the fully un-qualified data analysts currently spouting their bias.



Private_Miros #369 Posted 30 June 2020 - 06:39 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 30 June 2020 - 05:25 PM, said:

 

Now you're just talking semantics - the last resort of someone who has nothing else to say.

 

Lol?

 

That's not semantics at all.

If you rig anything, be it in favour of one individual or 15 individuals on a single battle basis. Both shows in results. Or would show, if only had non biased people or even people biased towards rigging have been capable of gathering objective data.


Edited by Private_Miros, 30 June 2020 - 07:59 PM.


Erwin_Von_Braun #370 Posted 30 June 2020 - 06:51 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 30 June 2020 - 05:39 PM, said:

 

Lol?

 

That's not semantics at all.

If you rig anything, be it in favour of one individual or 15 individuals on a single battle basis. Both shows in results. Or would show, if only had non biased people or even people biased towards non-rigging capable of gathering objective data.

Objective data?

You really shouldn't be using that term.

 



Private_Miros #371 Posted 30 June 2020 - 07:05 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 30 June 2020 - 05:51 PM, said:

Objective data?

You really shouldn't be using that term.

 

 

What term should you use to show rigging?



Erwin_Von_Braun #372 Posted 30 June 2020 - 07:12 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 30 June 2020 - 06:05 PM, said:

 

What term should you use to show rigging?

I'm not sure tbh.

What I would do though, as any good observer should, is keep an open mind to the possibility that I may be wrong.

 

Edit: The problem with folk such as yourself is that you're so utterly convinced you're right that it never even occurs to you that you may be wrong.

 


Edited by Erwin_Von_Braun, 30 June 2020 - 07:20 PM.


UserZer00 #373 Posted 30 June 2020 - 07:20 PM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 30 June 2020 - 06:21 PM, said:

 

Whether they investigated it with a preconceived idea of what it would show has no bearing on the result. The data shows what it shows and its only ever shown that the game mechanics operate as described by WG.

 

Counterpoint, nobody has managed to provide any data that does not fit within the described game mechanics whether they believe those mechanics are rigged or not

He'll either ignore your point or say something like "his proof is the patent written in black and white"

 

At this point it's clear he is either just pulling a Trump and ignoring any logic that goes against his BELIEFS (because he had proven nothing), he is doing it for the attention or he is doing it for "fun".

 

There are of course other possibilities, but I'll stick with those



Erwin_Von_Braun #374 Posted 30 June 2020 - 07:22 PM

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View PostUserZer00, on 30 June 2020 - 06:20 PM, said:

He'll either ignore your point or say something like "his proof is the patent written in black and white"

 

At this point it's clear he is either just pulling a Trump and ignoring any logic that goes against his BELIEFS (because he had proven nothing), he is doing it for the attention or he is doing it for "fun".

 

There are of course other possibilities, but I'll stick with those

I've already quoted that reply - this thread does seem to be awash with folk who struggle with reading...

 

Edit: I don't have belief either way (although I'm leaning towards it being such) my major point here (which you would know if you had bothered to read more than one post) is that claiming an absolute based on biased, limited data is absurd.

 


Edited by Erwin_Von_Braun, 30 June 2020 - 07:23 PM.


nakkipeppu #375 Posted 30 June 2020 - 07:29 PM

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Filing a patent is pretty much completely unrelated with intention to implement it. WG:s patent is pretty much a tool to just throw million ideas to the wall, in order to hope that they can slam patent infringements on competitors - this is just normal corporation routine. 

 

Here's Apple patenting rectangular screen with rounded shapes :

https://patents.goog...atent/USD670286

 

Here's a patent of a stick. Granted, it's not a corporation, but apparently you can patent a stick :

https://patents.goog...atent/US6360693

 

Here's some more that should drive the point home that you don't actually need to implement anything to be able to file a patent for it :

https://patents.goog...atent/US6293874

https://patents.goog...atent/US6313371

https://patents.goog...0060071122A1/en

 

Implementing a rigged mm just in order to take a dump on random players would be dr. evil-kind-of malicious douchebaggery and absolute waste of money and production resources, when the obvious reason - to weaponize your lawyers against possible competitors in order to screw with them is right there, and everybody is doing it. 

 

I don't get why people get so hung up on it. It's like suspecting your neighbour bought a car with the intent to run over you. Just because technically it's in the realm of possibilities, it's rather unlikely (unless you're a real piece of work).

 



jabster #376 Posted 30 June 2020 - 07:30 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 30 June 2020 - 06:22 PM, said:

I've already quoted that reply - this thread does seem to be awash with folk who struggle with reading...

 

Edit: I don't have belief either way (although I'm leaning towards it being such) my major point here (which you would know if you had bothered to read more than one post) is that claiming an absolute based on biased, limited data is absurd.

 


 If you’re taking rigging as giving players bad teams to drag their win rate down why is the data biased?



Private_Miros #377 Posted 30 June 2020 - 07:31 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 30 June 2020 - 06:12 PM, said:

I'm not sure tbh.

What I would do though, as any good observer should, is keep an open mind to the possibility that I may be wrong.

 

Edit: The problem with folk such as yourself is that you're so utterly convinced you're right that it never even occurs to you that you may be wrong.

 

 

Lol, you have issues in reading and understanding. Your posts are ironic in that light.

 

It's not about right or wrong. I like to see data. Show me any that shows the game is rigged. Lack thereof in the last 10 years despite many people being very biased towards their feeling that it's rigged gives a good case that the patent is used in the way they have always communicated, based on battle tier and tank type.

 

Any use of the parts of the patent based on player performance would show quickly in the data. As would rigging not in the patent, such as RNGs in favour of teams - since that influences all 30 individuals each time.

 

There are certainly aspects of MM that we don't know, such as the obvious grace periods at the start of playing a tank or revisiting it after a long break. It is unclear how much of a higher chance of top tier it gives you, but it's clear it does. Play 100 new tanks or tanks you haven't played in 6 months once and you will end up top tier 80-100% of the time, certainly when server population isn't ridiculously small. Any of those effects shows in data. So if anything is rigged, show it. 10 years, millions of battles, 1000s of players that are utterly convinced of their right in terms of it's rigged. Zero data.



Erwin_Von_Braun #378 Posted 30 June 2020 - 07:35 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 30 June 2020 - 06:31 PM, said:

 

Lol, you have issues in reading and understanding. Your posts are ironic in that light.

 

It's not about right or wrong. I like to see data. Show me any that shows the game is rigged. Lack thereof in the last 10 years despite many people being very biased towards their feeling that it's rigged gives a good case that the patent is used in the way they have always communicated, based on battle tier and tank type.

 

Any use of the parts of the patent based on player performance would show quickly in the data. As would rigging not in the patent, such as RNGs in favour of teams - since that influences all 30 individuals each time.

 

There are certainly aspects of MM that we don't know, such as the obvious grace periods at the start of playing a tank or revisiting it after a long break. It is unclear how much of a higher chance of top tier it gives you, but it's clear it does. Play 100 new tanks or tanks you haven't played in 6 months once and you will end up top tier 80-100% of the time, certainly when server population isn't ridiculously small. Any of those effects shows in data. So if anything is rigged, show it. 10 years, millions of battles, 1000s of players that are utterly convinced of their right in terms of it's rigged. Zero data.

Ok, you say it's clear, provide me with proof.

Provide me with a peer-reviewable report and I give you my word that I will review it thoroughly.

 

Until then, any claims you make should be preceded with the statement 'Given currently available evidence, this is what we believe to be the case'.

18:37 Added after 1 minute

View Postjabster, on 30 June 2020 - 06:30 PM, said:


 If you’re taking rigging as giving players bad teams to drag their win rate down why is the data biased?

I never said any potential rigging was biased as it would affect all involved players equally - be that in a positive or negative manner.

 

18:39 Added after 3 minute

View Postnakkipeppu, on 30 June 2020 - 06:29 PM, said:

I don't get why people get so hung up on it. It's like suspecting your neighbour bought a car with the intent to run over you. Just because technically it's in the realm of possibilities, it's rather unlikely (unless you're a real piece of work).

 

The possibility, therefore, exists - and this is the point I'm trying to make here.

 

 



nakkipeppu #379 Posted 30 June 2020 - 07:44 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 30 June 2020 - 08:35 PM, said:

The possibility, therefore, exists - and this is the point I'm trying to make here.

 

It does, as does the possibility of a teapot orbiting Sun somewhere between Earth and Mars, exist.



Erwin_Von_Braun #380 Posted 30 June 2020 - 07:52 PM

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View Postnakkipeppu, on 30 June 2020 - 06:44 PM, said:

 

It does, as does the possibility of a teapot orbiting Sun somewhere between Earth and Mars, exist.

Why do folk always take that argument to ridiculous levels?

 






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