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How to (with a big maybe) make the Sturmtiger balanced for randoms


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Ratriq #1 Posted 18 June 2020 - 08:09 PM

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Okay I know, I know but hear me out here.

While grinding through this sturmtiger gamemode, I did actually get some ideas on how this tank COULD be implemented.

 

Now how would this go about? Well for starters, surprisingly, tier 10 would not fit this tank. it would become another hated deathstar/shitbarn which ruins the competitiveness that tier 10 is and should be, cause let's not kid ourselves, the sturmtiger is a meme tank, just as the player-favourite tank KV-2 is.

 

My idea is to drop it down to tier 8, since it would also fit the "theme" a lot more since the king tiger, tiger, panthers and all those other ww2 era tanks are at those tiers. But it would also not be a deathstar tank all the time since it would meet tier 10's a lot and be bottom tier a lot, since it's tier 8 after all. Another reason for it not to be tier 10, where it would literally be top tier every game and be the most powerful tank tier vice.

 

Now it's down at tier 8, but what about the big elephant in the room? or more considering this situation, that big [edited]jumbo hole of a barrel. My idea is that the tank will be quite unique, it will be played as an assault td but have an artillery-esk gun. So, the accuracy will be horrendous, it will only be able to "hit" targets by being quite close to them, a bit similar to how artilleries fight against enemy tanks.

Now here's the unique part of my idea, it will have 2 shells, one standard shell, which will be a HE shell, but it will have an artillery like splash radious, if not bigger and if it actually hits its target, which will be rare, the damage isn't even needed to be increased by much, maybe just in total 400-500 base dmg if it hits its target, which thanks to its accuracy should be quite rare and REALLY hard anyway lol. And around 100-350 if the tank is in the splash radius, ofc the dmg depends on how close it is to the splash radius too.

This shell will also fire quite fast, like in the sturmtiger gamemode. Fast as for being a literal missile, so still slower than any other shell currently in the game.

 

Now the second ammo will be similar towards to how it's handled in the Sturm gamemode too, this "shell" will be ridiculously slow so there is no chance of being able to snipe tanks, because of just how slow it is, let alone it's accuracy. This "shell" I know it's a missile but whatever, won't have any splash radius, at all, but it if it does actually hit the target, we are talking about some serious dmg, like 700-900 dmg, remember this tank will probably never hit a tank far away, let alone a moving one, you have to be literally almost face-hugging it for this, in theory at least.

 

Now I want to implement how HE was supposed to act in the shell rebalance, that means this tank will have 0 penetration, on both shells, so they will always explode on the enemy tanks.

 

Now the tank, itself, will be slow, real slow, since it's literally a moving artillery more or less, but also have terrible turning, like in the event, you have to actually drive while turning to really fast. It's HP could be the same it's tier 7 counterpart, the Tiger I (1500), ammoracking this tank could also be quite easy since, well, it carries literal bombs inside of it and cause of how much space these missiles/shells will take up inside of it.

 

Reload speed would be more or less like what it is for a deathstar, 40 seconds or so and frontal armor similar to a tiger I but buffed by a little bit maybe.

 

 

What we got here is a slow, handicapped like in mobility tank, that relies on mostly splashing its enemies, not actually hitting them with slow-moving shells that will never pen tanks.

The tanks accuracy is similar to artys thus it's horrendous, it can easily get circled cause of the mobility/speed and is a dead tank if it's alone. This, in theory, will at least make it a bit historical accurate while also being as gameplay friendly as I can think of. Thus we still manage to get our lovely Sturm into the game as it's been requested throughout the years. The tank before could be the brummbär, which could play as a mini Sturmtiger in playstyle, just at a lower tier.

Deff not saying this is the way to go, but it felt at least in my eyes to be a lot more balanced than what Wargaming tried out in the past, critique?

 

 

 


Edited by Ratriq, 18 June 2020 - 10:42 PM.


Kdingo #2 Posted 18 June 2020 - 08:11 PM

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Just NO! The overmatch rule alone would make it ridiculous beyond believe.

Ratriq #3 Posted 18 June 2020 - 08:13 PM

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View PostKdingo, on 18 June 2020 - 07:11 PM, said:

Just NO! The overmatch rule alone would make it ridiculous beyond believe.

That didn't last long lmao, also btw as I said, the tank isn't balanced at least in this post, to hit its enemies, the accuracy would be like an arty fighting a wheelie.


Edited by Ratriq, 18 June 2020 - 08:18 PM.


qpranger #4 Posted 18 June 2020 - 08:14 PM

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I did not read the long opening post but I automatically like it,

because I want the Sturmtiger to become a regular random battle vehicle

for the sake of some desperately needed variety in this game.



Kdingo #5 Posted 18 June 2020 - 08:36 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 18 June 2020 - 08:13 PM, said:

That didn't last long lmao, also btw as I said, the tank isn't balanced at least in this post, to hit its enemies, the accuracy would be like an arty fighting a wheelie.

 

Its Irrelevant how accurate or inaccurate it would be, as either way will it hit out of pure luck, and whoever it hits gets send back to garage. 

If you want to spoil the game for the vast majority you could as well ask for v2 rockets.



Ratriq #6 Posted 18 June 2020 - 08:47 PM

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View PostKdingo, on 18 June 2020 - 07:36 PM, said:

 

Its Irrelevant how accurate or inaccurate it would be, as either way will it hit out of pure luck, and whoever it hits gets send back to garage. 

If you want to spoil the game for the vast majority you could as well ask for v2 rockets.

I mean, you could optionally read what I said about it and how it would work. it revolved around splashing it's opponents, not hitting them, and if it does it them, which mind you, it would have to be probably face-hugging it's opponent to do, also it would take splash dmg on itself too, it would give out max 750 dmg in what I said in my post.

Remember we've got a couple of premium tier 8 tank destroyers that make that kind of dmg, and they are actually accurate snipers and will hit their opponents consistently, some are even turreted. Just look at the ISU-152K for example with a base dmg of 750.

 

I'm not accusing you of not reading my post but... y know...



Private_Miros #7 Posted 18 June 2020 - 08:49 PM

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The exact moment you know that you've tried but failed and should shelf the idea.



Ratriq #8 Posted 18 June 2020 - 08:52 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 18 June 2020 - 07:49 PM, said:

 

The exact moment you know that you've tried but failed and should shelf the idea.

Watch him give you the same fate, just wait and watch.



Kdingo #9 Posted 18 June 2020 - 08:54 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 18 June 2020 - 08:47 PM, said:

I mean, you could optionally read what I said about it and how it would work. it revolved around splashing it's opponents, not hitting them, and if it does it them, which mind you, it would have to be probably face-hugging it's opponent to do, also it would take splash dmg on itself too, it would give out max 750 dmg in what I said in my post.

Remember we've got a couple of premium tier 8 tank destroyers that make that kind of dmg, and they are actually accurate snipers and will hit their opponents consistently, some are even turreted. Just look at the ISU-152K for example with a base dmg of 750.

 

I'm not accusing you of not reading my post but... y know...

 

Your post makes no sense, just pulls some random numbers and shows severe lack of knowledge about game mechanics. Which results in a incompetent suggestion to fit it into the game "just cause".

No one in his right mind would want it, it has even been tested years ago and was considered beyond broken, even your "damage reduction" ideas don't change any of that. 

And your idea of accuracy just displays how poor your knowledge is about dispersion/wheigting of shells.



Ratriq #10 Posted 18 June 2020 - 09:00 PM

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View PostKdingo, on 18 June 2020 - 07:54 PM, said:

 

Your post makes no sense, just pulls some random numbers and shows severe lack of knowledge about game mechanics. Which results in a incompetent suggestion to fit it into the game "just cause".

No one in his right mind would want it, it has even been tested years ago and was considered beyond broken, even your "damage reduction" ideas don't change any of that. 

And your idea of accuracy just displays how poor your knowledge is about dispersion/wheigting of shells.

So we are just going to go to now just insulting my game knowledge rather than just saying you don't agree with the idea of it since you don't like the tank? Weren't you the same guy who didn't like derps anyway or am I mixing it up with someone else?

 

Either way you don't ever really say what's wrong with it, only that's "it's wrong", so please, can you bother maybe explaining why it wouldn't work? We've got mobile tanks with 750 base dmg, that are accurate and got high pen at tier 8. These literally one-shot lower tiers. The sturmtiger on the other hand, in my post, was literally barely even going to be able to land a 750 shot on a tank, it was more about splashing tanks like how arty works, only a bit bigger radius and on top of that, a big fat reload time. The DPM on this tank would honestly be really shitty if it didn't splash a group of tanks hugging each other.

 

Also, you don't know if the tank was tested in this exact way, from my knowledge, it was mostly tested as a one-shot monster that would be at tier 10, which is far from what I'm suggesting it in how it should be implemented.


Edited by Ratriq, 18 June 2020 - 09:02 PM.


DutchBaron_ #11 Posted 18 June 2020 - 09:02 PM

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Maybe you could make something like a rocket shell with basicaly zero penetration but a huge splash radius. Not to much damage like 300 on a direct hit but a more equal damage distribution over the area of the splash radius. That way it is only strong if it can hit multiple targets decently together for like 150 HP each.

Edited by DutchBaron_, 18 June 2020 - 09:05 PM.


_zzzz_ #12 Posted 18 June 2020 - 09:04 PM

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I think...

 



Ratriq #13 Posted 18 June 2020 - 09:04 PM

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View PostDutchBaron_, on 18 June 2020 - 08:02 PM, said:

Maybe you could make something like a rocket shell with basicaly zero penetration but a huge splash radius. Not to much damage like 300 on a direct hit but a more equal damage distribution over the area of the splash radius.

Actually yeah, while it was kinda what I was suggesting with the first shell, come to think of it, making it so it doesn't increase much in damage at all if it actually hits a tank could actually work, at least with the first shell.

Gameplay-vice at least, I'd be down for that.



Balc0ra #14 Posted 18 June 2020 - 09:27 PM

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It's been discussed to death over the years with different ideas. Tier 8 you get the issue with armor. As vs tier 6 guns, that thing will be a beast. And 1500 HP? Most tier 8 TDs with that much HP have it because they are butt slow. So 40 speed and 1500 HP with 250mm armor? Not really ideal. 1150 would be more than enough.

 

As for the gun? Well, that's where they had issues the last time. And why it was instantly removed from testing. I think they had it as a tier X then. As due to the caliber, the AP overmatch was insane. And HE pen is usually half the caliber. It would be insane too. And what about the missile ammo? Can it overmatch? How does that behaive in therms of auto bounce? 70 or 85? Or will it still be like HE? And what would be a good pen for it?

 

So tbh, IF this thing would make it into the game at tier 8. The speed would be 30 at the most. Slow traverse, 1150 HP as it has fairly good armor head-on. And treat the gun like a 152mm. So 910 alpha with HE that is NOT half the caliber on pen. But give it about 90 pen, as the 152 has 86 on tier 7. No gold, no HEAT, no AP. Maybe a 2nd HE shell with more pen and less alpha. Like 130 pen for 400 HE. But you still suffer with the same reload.



Kdingo #15 Posted 18 June 2020 - 09:52 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 18 June 2020 - 09:00 PM, said:

So we are just going to go to now just insulting my game knowledge rather than just saying you don't agree with the idea of it since you don't like the tank? Weren't you the same guy who didn't like derps anyway or am I mixing it up with someone else?

 

Either way you don't ever really say what's wrong with it, only that's "it's wrong", so please, can you bother maybe explaining why it wouldn't work? We've got mobile tanks with 750 base dmg, that are accurate and got high pen at tier 8. These literally one-shot lower tiers. The sturmtiger on the other hand, in my post, was literally barely even going to be able to land a 750 shot on a tank, it was more about splashing tanks like how arty works, only a bit bigger radius and on top of that, a big fat reload time. The DPM on this tank would honestly be really shitty if it didn't splash a group of tanks hugging each other.

 

Also, you don't know if the tank was tested in this exact way, from my knowledge, it was mostly tested as a one-shot monster that would be at tier 10, which is far from what I'm suggesting it in how it should be implemented.

 

I said i don't agree with you before, but your lack of game knowledge is less of an insult as knowledge is quite relevant when making suggestion.

One does not really wonder you want that tank given that the only tank you are "good" in is kv2, the rest is partially so abysmal (e25) that it clearly shows that anything but right click/left click exceeds your expertise. 

Yet here you go suggesting a new derp tank, that has already been considered broken, to be added to the game.

Just grind the japanese heavies and derp away.

This game surely doesn't need more of them and surely none with 380mm bunker buster mortars.

 

You only try to justify a gimped version based on flawed understanding of the game with completely made up numbers just to fit it in somehow. and even that would be broken. let lone that 3 arty games are already enough of a pain and you want to add more splash/rng fiesta.

What is next? 800mm railgun artillery on tier 9?

 

And i am not the guy that hates derps, i find them lazily implemented and sort of ruining mid tier where nowadays nearly every bob replaces capable guns with derps cause it is so much easier. What once was a thing on few tanks now became a disease where you even have people in tier 7/8/9 derp around in tanks that have completely capable guns, but they stick to the trusty 105-122mm derp cause they never learned how/where to aim. pershing with the 105 for example, usually played by some complete muppet that barely manages 200dpg.


Edited by Kdingo, 20 June 2020 - 03:33 PM.


Draakard #16 Posted 18 June 2020 - 09:58 PM

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Played 3 games in the Sturmtiger....

 

OK... GL to all who want to continue to play that gamemode !!

 

I have problems to see what the development team was thinking…. the majority of players are not 10 years old.



qpranger #17 Posted 18 June 2020 - 10:01 PM

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View PostDraakard, on 18 June 2020 - 11:58 PM, said:

…. the majority of players are not 10 years old.

 

Yes, they are younger.



Ratriq #18 Posted 18 June 2020 - 10:04 PM

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View PostKdingo, on 18 June 2020 - 08:52 PM, said:

 

I said i don't agree with you before, but your pack of game knowledge is less of an insult as knowledge is quite relevant when making suggestion.

One does not really wonder you want that tank given that the only tank you are "good" in is kv2, the rest is partially so abysmal (e25) that it clearly shows that anything but right click/left click exceeds your expertise. 

Yet here you go suggesting a new derp tank, that has already been considered broken, to be added to the game.

Just grind the japanese heavies and derp away.

This game surely doesn't need more of them and surely none with 380mm bunker buster mortars.

 

You only try to justify a gimped version based on flawed understanding of the game with completely made up numbers just to fit it in somehow. and even that would be broken. let lone that 3 arty games are already enough of a pain and you want to add more splash/rng fiesta.

What is next? 800mm railgun artillery on tier 9?

 

And i am not the guy that hates derps, i find them lazily implemented and sort of ruining mid tier where nowadays nearly every bob replaces capable guns with derps cause it is so much easier. What once was a thing on few tanks now became a disease where you even have people in tier 7/8/9 derp around in tanks that have completely capable guns, but they stick to the trusty 105-122mm derp cause they never learned how/where to aim. pershing with the 105 for example, usually played by some complete muppet that barely manages 200dpg.

Okay now you are honestly bringing up old stat tanks, which is just weak of you lol, I've played since 2013, I was literally at the age of 10 and played with my mom when I started, which is also why my stats are so bad, so of course it had crapstats, but if you did care to look at my recent stats in what tanks you'll see I'm doing about average to above average mostly in all tanks.

Also, I'm not even sure I myself would like to play the sturmtiger in the style I'm suggesting, it's honestly just cause it's such an iconic and meme tank, I'm a tank nerd who loves ww2 tanks, and the sturmtiger is an iconic and meme-y tank, just as the kv-2 is. But clearly you are just against the sturmtiger mostly cause the fact it is a derp tank, so I'm sorry but I ain't gonna bother discussing something like this with you when you show so clearly no interest in any kind of derp tanks which like it or not, is a part of the game and saying derp tanks is just clicking just shows how much you know about them.

21:09 Added after 4 minute

View PostBalc0ra, on 18 June 2020 - 08:27 PM, said:

It's been discussed to death over the years with different ideas. Tier 8 you get the issue with armor. As vs tier 6 guns, that thing will be a beast. And 1500 HP? Most tier 8 TDs with that much HP have it because they are butt slow. So 40 speed and 1500 HP with 250mm armor? Not really ideal. 1150 would be more than enough.

 

As for the gun? Well, that's where they had issues the last time. And why it was instantly removed from testing. I think they had it as a tier X then. As due to the caliber, the AP overmatch was insane. And HE pen is usually half the caliber. It would be insane too. And what about the missile ammo? Can it overmatch? How does that behaive in therms of auto bounce? 70 or 85? Or will it still be like HE? And what would be a good pen for it?

 

So tbh, IF this thing would make it into the game at tier 8. The speed would be 30 at the most. Slow traverse, 1150 HP as it has fairly good armor head-on. And treat the gun like a 152mm. So 910 alpha with HE that is NOT half the caliber on pen. But give it about 90 pen, as the 152 has 86 on tier 7. No gold, no HEAT, no AP. Maybe a 2nd HE shell with more pen and less alpha. Like 130 pen for 400 HE. But you still suffer with the same reload.

Well, you did more or less just repeat what I say tbh, I did say that the mobility that included speed would be bad, and I meant it, like real bad, currently, in the sturmtiger event, you move automatically forward when you are turning because that is how bad the mobility is. The speed seriously in my eyes supposed to be just as flawed, we are talking tog speed here, which also prevents you rushing into enemies, do one shot and escape since of how slow you'll be.

 

I also talked about the shells, both of them, having 0 pen, and the primary shell just outright just is balanced around splashing your enemies, since it will be near impossible to hit them, even then as I talked to someone else, it would work to only make it so the dmg increases by 100 or 50 or so when hitting a tank. Yadi yadda, now I'm just repeating what I said in my post but yeah.



Dava_117 #19 Posted 18 June 2020 - 10:28 PM

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View PostKdingo, on 18 June 2020 - 08:11 PM, said:

Just NO! The overmatch rule alone would make it ridiculous beyond believe.

 

Which just work for AP and APCR round btw...

 

IMO putting the tank at tier 8 is a problem due to armour.

Tier 10 would be better. Give it 2 rounds:

HE: 1200 alpha, 100mm pen, 150m/s velocity, really high splash area;

HEAT: 1000 alpha, 280-320 pen, 150m/s velocity;

Reload: 25 s;

Make it an arty (so the shell are always visible), with 1500-1800 HP, no satellite view but sniper mode.

The alpha is in the range present at tier 10, but the difference between HE and HEAT rounds make HEAT the best solution, with HE that are useful mainly against lightly armoured tanks and against groups of enemies. In this was we get a somehow skillbased arty.



saxsan4 #20 Posted 18 June 2020 - 10:29 PM

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Not tier 8, ridiculous , a tier 6 coolant even pen it

 

 

Make tier 10 arta

 

1 min realod

 

give it special type of shell, ROCKETS

 

Very slow shell  speed and make it have huge smoke trail when it shoots so everyone can see where the shot came form

 

have smoke trail stay in air for 5 seconds before disappearing 

 

have very high dmg but 15 pen so it willl only explode dmg and not penetrate much apart form pure paper tanks

 

 

 

21:36 Added after 7 minute

View PostBalc0ra, on 18 June 2020 - 08:27 PM, said:

It's been discussed to death over the years with different ideas. Tier 8 you get the issue with armor. As vs tier 6 guns, that thing will be a beast. And 1500 HP? Most tier 8 TDs with that much HP have it because they are butt slow. So 40 speed and 1500 HP with 250mm armor? Not really ideal. 1150 would be more than enough.

 

As for the gun? Well, that's where they had issues the last time. And why it was instantly removed from testing. I think they had it as a tier X then. As due to the caliber, the AP overmatch was insane. And HE pen is usually half the caliber. It would be insane too. And what about the missile ammo? Can it overmatch? How does that behaive in therms of auto bounce? 70 or 85? Or will it still be like HE? And what would be a good pen for it?

 

So tbh, IF this thing would make it into the game at tier 8. The speed would be 30 at the most. Slow traverse, 1150 HP as it has fairly good armor head-on. And treat the gun like a 152mm. So 910 alpha with HE that is NOT half the caliber on pen. But give it about 90 pen, as the 152 has 86 on tier 7. No gold, no HEAT, no AP. Maybe a 2nd HE shell with more pen and less alpha. Like 130 pen for 400 HE. But you still suffer with the same reload.


why would 380mm gun do same dmg as 152mm?/ and less than 183mm,????






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