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Modern Autoloaders?


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Ratriq #1 Posted 21 June 2020 - 11:43 PM

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Okay, so the genuine question, how come these tanks like the Progetto and such don't get more hate with their autoloading mechanic? As in, they quickly demolish tanks by firing 3 shells quite really quickly?

Like I'm not hating on them right now perse, but I'm surprised since I myself have come into a lot of situations where a Progetto shows up unloads 3 quick high damaging shells and then runs off and can quickly reload a single 4th shell to shoot me if necessary by just waiting some extra seconds since he doesn't have to wait for the full mag to reload.

 

Is there some major balancing mechanic to these tanks that I'm forgetting or how exactly is this a "fair" mechanic? being able to store up a bunch of shells while you are not firing to be able to unleash multiple at the same time and also being able to play as a normal 1 shell tank if necessary, though, by a longer reload time, but not by that much.

Classic autoloaders had the problem of when firing 1-3 shells they could either reload the mag entirely to not risk getting attacked or flanked with a half-full mag, which would put them in a long reloading state where they would be defenceless or just stay with the mag, but if they get overrun/flanked, they would barely be able to defend themselves since they wouldn't have enough shells in the mag at that point.

The Progetto and other similar tanks don't have to think about this though, since when not firing, they are reloading a second/third shell automatically while also already having shells ready to fire on their enemy. I just see these autoloaders being better in everything over classic autoloaders and standard tanks in this regard.

 

Again, want to make it clear, I'm not hating on them perse, but more asking how these are generally not more disliked or again, is there some weakness/es I don't know about these tanks that most know of?



OniichanSenpai #2 Posted 22 June 2020 - 09:20 AM

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It's easy. Progetto is strong, but not game breaking. It does not introduce new tactics. It does not invalidate other tank classes. 

Jauhesammutin #3 Posted 22 June 2020 - 09:43 AM

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View PostRatriq, on 21 June 2020 - 10:43 PM, said:

Okay, so the genuine question, how come these tanks like the Progetto and such don't get more hate with their autoloading mechanic? As in, they quickly demolish tanks by firing 3 shells quite really quickly?

Like I'm not hating on them right now perse, but I'm surprised since I myself have come into a lot of situations where a Progetto shows up unloads 3 quick high damaging shells and then runs off and can quickly reload a single 4th shell to shoot me if necessary by just waiting some extra seconds since he doesn't have to wait for the full mag to reload.

 

Is there some major balancing mechanic to these tanks that I'm forgetting or how exactly is this a "fair" mechanic? being able to store up a bunch of shells while you are not firing to be able to unleash multiple at the same time and also being able to play as a normal 1 shell tank if necessary, though, by a longer reload time, but not by that much.

Classic autoloaders had the problem of when firing 1-3 shells they could either reload the mag entirely to not risk getting attacked or flanked with a half-full mag, which would put them in a long reloading state where they would be defenceless or just stay with the mag, but if they get overrun/flanked, they would barely be able to defend themselves since they wouldn't have enough shells in the mag at that point.

The Progetto and other similar tanks don't have to think about this though, since when not firing, they are reloading a second/third shell automatically while also already having shells ready to fire on their enemy. I just see these autoloaders being better in everything over classic autoloaders and standard tanks in this regard.

 

Again, want to make it clear, I'm not hating on them perse, but more asking how these are generally not more disliked or again, is there some weakness/es I don't know about these tanks that most know of?

Progetto has flexibility. That's about it.

It's DPM in a single shot mode is worse than on the other medium tanks with similar caliber single shot guns. But it has the option to unload all 3 shells.

It's DPM as a full autoloader (shoot 3 and reload 3) is worse than than on other medium tanks with an autoloader. But, again, it has the option to reload only 1 shell.

 

It's the flexibility which makes it such a good tank.Without it it would be quite mediocre.

 



UserZer00 #4 Posted 22 June 2020 - 09:50 AM

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It really only approaches being overpowered in the hands of someone with restraint.

When you unload all three shells it takes a long time to reload them, but if you fire one and wait then the reload is a lot quicker.

I kmow that for someone like me it's the same as any autoloader, I always have shots when loading, but none when the clip is ready.  (Not the games fault, my fault for having fired at non optimal targets).

Mind you, as mentally I still seem to treat all tanks as if there is a delay between shots, I hate running into them.  This is the same as any autoloader though.

Laatikkomafia #5 Posted 22 June 2020 - 10:04 AM

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They don't require you to hit a pixel weakspot and aren't almost unbeatable when hulldown, they don't move 95 km/h and don't hit you from the other side of the map via the sky.

 

So yeah.. Comparing to the nonsense WoT has nowadays, the autoreloaders are actually the least of the game's issues.



saxsan4 #6 Posted 22 June 2020 - 12:16 PM

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The tier 8 premium and tech tree re strong, borderline OP but kept in balance due to low armour

 

 

the tier 10 is very OP and is thankfully being nerfed



Geno1isme #7 Posted 22 June 2020 - 01:54 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 22 June 2020 - 12:43 AM, said:

Again, want to make it clear, I'm not hating on them perse, but more asking how these are generally not more disliked or again, is there some weakness/es I don't know about these tanks that most know of?

Mainly their clip potential is pretty limited compared to regular autoloaders and/or they unload slower. E.g. compare the Standard B to the Skoda T50 (same goes for the T10s): While the Italian has a little more alpha per shot and therefore a slightly higher clip potential it takes almost twice as long to unload per shot. And once empty reloading a single shot takes almost as long as the Skoda loading a full clip. The latter is esp. noticable with the T10 Progetto, actually reloading the full clip takes forever, even just one shot gives many single-shot enemies enough time to reload twice, so if you can't kill your enemy with the clip it is generally not worth the risk to fully unload as you're not going to trade favoribly.

One of my favorite metrics to compare autoloaders is burst DPM (the theoretical DPM while unloading a clip) to check how brutal they can be, and there the Autoreloaders score rather low (about 50% less than the Czech meds).

 

At T8 the situation is a bit different as there aren't really any autoloaders there that are comparable to the Progetto: Czech T8 is no autoloader, frenchies don't have a T8 med at all, T69 lacks mobility, 50 100 is all about clip size and BC is a light and therefore isn't really supposed to bring lots of firepower, so the Progetto/Pantera don't really have much competition in that regard. The main issue is that they don't really have any drawbacks compared to other single-shot T8 meds when not using their clip (unlike the T9 and T10 which have to pay with alpha and significantly less DPM).



Ratriq #8 Posted 22 June 2020 - 02:58 PM

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View PostLaatikkomafia, on 22 June 2020 - 09:04 AM, said:

They don't require you to hit a pixel weakspot and aren't almost unbeatable when hulldown, they don't move 95 km/h and don't hit you from the other side of the map via the sky.

 

So yeah.. Comparing to the nonsense WoT has nowadays, the autoreloaders are actually the least of the game's issues.

So in short, while they've got a quite powerful autoloading mechanic, it's balanced out because of bad armor? Mind I ask though, didn't the IS-3A become an autoloader? I know I'm talking about one single tank but still.



Laatikkomafia #9 Posted 22 June 2020 - 03:36 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 22 June 2020 - 03:58 PM, said:

So in short, while they've got a quite powerful autoloading mechanic, it's balanced out because of bad armor? Mind I ask though, didn't the IS-3A become an autoloader? I know I'm talking about one single tank but still.

 

Yes, the IS-3A has an autoreloader-thingy, where it has up to three shots in the magazine. But in the end, it is an IS-3. The armor isn't anything special nowadays and the gun's accuracy is rubbish. Close range it can be quite brutal though.



Ratriq #10 Posted 22 June 2020 - 04:08 PM

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View PostLaatikkomafia, on 22 June 2020 - 02:36 PM, said:

 

Yes, the IS-3A has an autoreloader-thingy, where it has up to three shots in the magazine. But in the end, it is an IS-3. The armor isn't anything special nowadays and the gun's accuracy is rubbish. Close range it can be quite brutal though.

Sure but's still heavy tank armor isn't it? I mean if we put this mechanic on any tank like the maus, t95, t34, is, etc. Would it still be considered fair?



Laatikkomafia #11 Posted 22 June 2020 - 04:21 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 22 June 2020 - 05:08 PM, said:

Sure but's still heavy tank armor isn't it? I mean if we put this mechanic on any tank like the maus, t95, t34, is, etc. Would it still be considered fair?

 

T34 with an autoloader and the gun's current stats would still be below average :D



Ratriq #12 Posted 22 June 2020 - 04:24 PM

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View PostLaatikkomafia, on 22 June 2020 - 03:21 PM, said:

 

T34 with an autoloader and the gun's current stats would still be below average :D

Yeah lol, I know while it's not really up to date with the current meta, I've actually still been able to make the T34 and the IS-6 to work quite well lol.



Ricox #13 Posted 22 June 2020 - 04:36 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 22 June 2020 - 01:58 PM, said:

So in short, while they've got a quite powerful autoloading mechanic, it's balanced out because of bad armor? Mind I ask though, didn't the IS-3A become an autoloader? I know I'm talking about one single tank but still.

 

It's balanced out because Progetto's firepower is nothing particularly impressive. Using single-shot mode you have far less firepower than other tier 8 mediums and bursting essentially disarms you because of the long reload. Having no armor means that a Progetto that fired a burst and doesn't have a clear escape route is a dead Progetto (plus, arty can wipe the floor with Progettos - can't count the number of times I've had HE penetrations by arties and it really, really, really hurts). The strength of the tank comes entirely from the flexibility and mobility, and, although it's pretty powerful thanks to that, it doesn't really approach OP levels as some other premium tanks.

 

The tank is definitely OP when it comes to the fun factor, though. It's probably the most fun tank I've ever played in this game and I'm not even that good with it (yet).


Edited by Ricox, 22 June 2020 - 04:38 PM.


Ratriq #14 Posted 22 June 2020 - 04:38 PM

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View PostRicox, on 22 June 2020 - 03:36 PM, said:

 

It's balanced out because Progetto's firepower is nothing particularly impressive. Using single-shot mode you have far less firepower than other tier 8 mediums and bursting essentially disarms you because of the long reload. Having no armor means that a Progetto that fired a burst and doesn't have a clear escape route is a dead Progetto (plus, arty can wipe the floor with Progettos - can't count the number of times I've had HE penetrations by arties and it really, really, really hurts). The strength of the tank comes entirely from the flexibility and mobility, and, although it's pretty powerful thanks to that, it doesn't really approach OP levels as some other premium tanks.

 

The tank is definitely OP when it comes to the fun factor, though. It's probably the most fun tank I've ever played in this game.

So again then, it's mostly about them having mostly terrible armor?



gunslingerXXX #15 Posted 22 June 2020 - 04:42 PM

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They get limited hate because you can hurt them just like other tanks I think. 

EBR gets hate because they are too fast to shoot. Defender gets (got?) hate because you only bounce them. Arty gets hate because you can not shoot them back in normal situation. At least thats my personal hate with these machines...



Slyspy #16 Posted 22 June 2020 - 04:45 PM

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They get limited hate because they are not the first - the French autoloaders were and they got so much hate that they were nerfed into the ground. Now autoloaders are so common that no one bats an eyelid. Not sure that the tier eight Prog is especially balanced though. 

Ricox #17 Posted 22 June 2020 - 04:47 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 22 June 2020 - 03:38 PM, said:

So again then, it's mostly about them having mostly terrible armor?

 

I'm not sure you read my post. No, it's about having a gun that would be mediocre at best without the autoreloading mechanism. The game is filled with tanks that manage to excel in every technical category, but you think this many downsides is not enough? The downside of having no armor is quite significant when the "no armor" situation is so bad that enemies can easily penetrate you with HE, which results in even less survivability potential. I could see fairness in it being mildly nerfed, but there's a lot of tanks who need to go on the chopping block first (or alongside this tank).



Ratriq #18 Posted 22 June 2020 - 04:55 PM

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View PostRicox, on 22 June 2020 - 03:47 PM, said:

 

I'm not sure you read my post. No, it's about having a gun that would be mediocre at best without the autoreloading mechanism. The game is filled with tanks that manage to excel in every technical category, but you think this many downsides is not enough? The downside of having no armor is quite significant when the "no armor" situation is so bad that enemies can easily penetrate you with HE, which results in even less survivability potential. I could see fairness in it being mildly nerfed, but there's a lot of tanks who need to go on the chopping block first (or alongside this tank).

Well yeah, but a lot of tanks have the exact same gun as the Progetto among other tanks. Sure the gun isn't anything special but a lot of non-autoloaders have the same kind of gun. That's why I'm not really bringing up the gun too much, since, at least from my knowledge, it more or less shares the typical medium gun, at least in dpm.

15:57 Added after 2 minute

View PostgunslingerXXX, on 22 June 2020 - 03:42 PM, said:

They get limited hate because you can hurt them just like other tanks I think. 

EBR gets hate because they are too fast to shoot. Defender gets (got?) hate because you only bounce them. Arty gets hate because you can not shoot them back in normal situation. At least thats my personal hate with these machines...

Actually, that does make a lot of sense, come to think about it. Just surprised though, since I'm still come into frustrating situations when a Progetto speeds trough and 3 shots me, now as you said, it's still nowhere near as annoying all the other hated classes when you do mention it.

Arty is mostly hated since you can't fight back, same with ebr, defender, and the pre-nerf Japanese heavies, etc.



Ricox #19 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:24 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 22 June 2020 - 03:55 PM, said:

Well yeah, but a lot of tanks have the exact same gun as the Progetto among other tanks. Sure the gun isn't anything special but a lot of non-autoloaders have the same kind of gun. That's why I'm not really bringing up the gun too much, since, at least from my knowledge, it more or less shares the typical medium gun, at least in dpm.

15:57 Added after 2 minute

Actually, that does make a lot of sense, come to think about it. Just surprised though, since I'm still come into frustrating situations when a Progetto speeds trough and 3 shots me, now as you said, it's still nowhere near as annoying all the other hated classes when you do mention it.

Arty is mostly hated since you can't fight back, same with ebr, defender, and the pre-nerf Japanese heavies, etc.

 

For example, a comparison with T-44 - https://tanks.gg/tank/progetto-46/stats?cs=t-44&cl=51211f

 

Relative to the T-44, the Progetto only seems to shine in terrain resistance, penetration (although T-44 has exceptionally bad penetration), the fact of the autoreloading mechanism, and view range. I guess it might make more sense if the Progetto had slightly less penetration or alpha since it is an exceptionally strong tank right now, but not sure what your wishes/intentions are.


Edited by Ricox, 22 June 2020 - 05:25 PM.


Ratriq #20 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:29 PM

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View PostRicox, on 22 June 2020 - 04:24 PM, said:

 

For example, a comparison with T-44 - https://tanks.gg/tank/progetto-46/stats?cs=t-44&cl=51211f

 

Relative to the T-44, the Progetto only seems to shine in terrain resistance, penetration (although T-44 has exceptionally bad penetration), the fact of the autoreloading mechanism, and view range. I guess it might make more sense if the Progetto had slightly less penetration or alpha since it is an exceptionally strong tank right now, but not sure what your wishes/intentions are.

Again this post was more me wondering how these kind of tanks aren't more disliked, since, well, you can a lot of the time come into quite frustrating situations when they load 3 shells quickly on you.
But as gunslinger mentioned above, I kinda got my answer since compared to things like the pre-nerf japanese heavies, arty, ebr, etc. You can actually hurt Progettos and such back which makes sense, since Progettos and such are easily the least frustrating of the other mentioned.


Edited by Ratriq, 22 June 2020 - 05:29 PM.





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