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The "Cheap" vs "Expensive" Ammo dilemma


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Ratriq #1 Posted 22 June 2020 - 04:07 PM

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I've seen this excuse been thrown away a lot lately about gold ammo. With looking at standard vs gold ammo as "cheap vs expensive" instead now the problem is, there are multiple problems with this point of view.

The biggest one is, that it outright says that rich players get access to better in-game affecting shells which have a higher pen with no drawback besides cost.

Rich players in most scenarios are either:

A, good/long time players who have been playing this game for a long time and have stacked up a lot of credits.
or
B, paying players, who pay with irl money, such as getting premium tanks for easier credits, premium subscription or even the battlepass which gives more credits and other stuff to you. Hell, if you got a real fat wallet you can just buy a bunch of gold and convert it at an expensive cost to credits.

This literally outright means that players with the bigger wallet can just perform better in matches since gold shells don't have any drawback, which is just a bad gameplay mechanic.

Now I'm not against gold shells perse, since they are sadly necessary for this modern meta we've got, what I am against is the concept of having a shell that is better in all ways over a standard shell, outright making it useless if you are rich enough and the only balancing mechanic of it is that it "costs more".

 

A gameplay mechanic is not good if it outright means richer players can perform better in matches cause they got a shell that is better in everything compared to their standard one. Again, the cost is not a valid excuse, it only means paying players are the ones who can more easily waste credits on them since premium tanks, premium account etc.

Premium shells, gold shells or whatever you want to call them is currently not balanced, I understand today's meta with armor monsters makes them necessary, but there should still be drawbacks towards them. Thus both encourage the use of them if you can't pen an enemy but also discourages the use of using the "superior" shells hilly nilly towards enemies that clearly don't need them. (yes that means no more gold spamming at arty, even how much they deserve it)

Now, of course, there have been many suggested ways of going about this, from removing critical hits, to removing the dpm of the shell, reducing its shell speed and all that, I won't go into that since that's not what I'm trying to get out here. I'm only annoyed at this clear p2w saying that tries to protect these shells that are clearly better at everything compared to standard shells when in reality, they are both a bad gameplay mechanic and badly balanced to actually work.
 



Kdingo #2 Posted 22 June 2020 - 04:57 PM

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There is no dilemma, just the usual monthly topics providing free tears about "prem" ammo.

You get the same regarding arty, wheelchairs etc... but those have sticky topics to dump all the crying into... hmmm mods can we have a prem ammo sticky dump?



24doom24 #3 Posted 22 June 2020 - 04:58 PM

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TL/DR?? Is this just another gold whine thread. 

 

Premium shells were P2W back when they were only for gold. That was changed long ago. Credits are the easiest resource to acquire in the game. 


Edited by 24doom24, 22 June 2020 - 05:00 PM.


Ratriq #4 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:10 PM

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View PostKdingo, on 22 June 2020 - 03:57 PM, said:

There is no dilemma, just the usual monthly topics providing free tears about "prem" ammo.

You get the same regarding arty, wheelchairs etc... but those have sticky topics to dump all the crying into... hmmm mods can we have a prem ammo sticky dump?

If you did read it, I mentioned that this was not really about the gold shells themselves, it was more about what the people who defend these shells use.

16:12 Added after 2 minute

View Post24doom24, on 22 June 2020 - 03:58 PM, said:

TL/DR?? Is this just another gold whine thread. 

 

Premium shells were P2W back when they were only for gold. That was changed long ago. Credits are the easiest resource to acquire in the game. 

What I talk about is literally mentioned in the first sentences, while yes I critique gold ammo, I mostly posted this to talk about a popular argument to defend gold shells and why it outright isn't a good argument and just further supports p2w mechanics.



bloke75 #5 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:12 PM

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Well , as I pay for premium time ,(  which in turn,  allows me to purchase more premium ammo ) , should I not have some reward / perk as I'm paying for all the freeloaders ?  

( ie shooting the freeloaders with prem ammo = big smiles )

( P.s sorry for the " hand grenade " post !! )

Gwynbleidd11 #6 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:15 PM

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Dont use gold-noob ammo to ruin this game even more!

24doom24 #7 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:16 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 22 June 2020 - 04:10 PM, said:

If you did read it, I mentioned that this was not really about the gold shells themselves, it was more about what the people who defend these shells use.

16:12 Added after 2 minute

What I talk about is literally mentioned in the first sentences, while yes I critique gold ammo, I mostly posted this to talk about a popular argument to defend gold shells and why it outright isn't a good argument and just further supports p2w mechanics.

They aren't pay to win though...



NUKLEAR_SLUG #8 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:20 PM

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F2P players can do just as well as wallet warriors. You can play as a F2P player and still afford to fire gold when you need to and make your credits back with standard rounds on everything else. Anyone firing 100% gold is just throwing credits at the enemy for the sake of it because a standard round is going to pen 50mm of armour just as well as a HEAT round does.

Ratriq #9 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:22 PM

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View Post24doom24, on 22 June 2020 - 04:16 PM, said:

They aren't pay to win though...

Again, I'll summarise some of my posts arguments, you can read the post and there I discuss in-depth what makes them pay to win, but in short, they are p2w, you pay more credits to be able to perform better in battles since gold shells have no drawback compared to standard shells.

Now, what kind of players most often have enough money to only fire gold shells all the time? That's right, paying players, players who have either grinded a lot of money with premium tanks, premium subscription or just outright improved battlepass since they also reward you with more credits. Or if you want to go into real extreme lengths, if you've got a fat enough wallet, you can literally buy a bunch of gold to convert into credits at an expensive fee. 
You can bring up but these players aren't paying for- Which still doesn't really work since the majority that can afford using a lot of premium ammo is players like the ones who pay for premium subscriptions, thus because they paid with irl to get more money n' such, they can use and waste more premium shells than your average player.

16:24 Added after 2 minute

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 22 June 2020 - 04:20 PM, said:

F2P players can do just as well as wallet warriors. You can play as a F2P player and still afford to fire gold when you need to and make your credits back with standard rounds on everything else. Anyone firing 100% gold is just throwing credits at the enemy for the sake of it because a standard round is going to pen 50mm of armour just as well as a HEAT round does.

Afford yes, but F2P players gotta be a lot more careful on average when it comes to when they should fire them, thus it can easily come into situations where they had standard shell loaded and shot an enemy which it would've penned if it was a gold shell.

Paying players or players that just got enough credits/money to throw at stocking up with gold, don't have to learn this in the same way, since they can afford to lose a lot more credits and still go profit compared to your average f2p player. Thus they can load and waste a lot more premium shells without having a second thought about it.



bloke75 #10 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:25 PM

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View PostGwynbleidd11, on 22 June 2020 - 04:15 PM, said:

Dont use gold-noob ammo to ruin this game even more!

 

My FV 4005  ( poop barn ) does not share your sentiments  :)



Kdingo #11 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:27 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 22 June 2020 - 05:10 PM, said:

If you did read it, I mentioned that this was not really about the gold shells themselves, it was more about what the people who defend these shells use.

 

Doing some mental gymnastics to pretend its not the usual rant while screaming p2w between the lines is not anything different then the rivers of tears we get about the topic every month.

If it looks like a turd, smells like a turd then it most likely is a turd no matter how much it tries to pretend its a sausage.



bloke75 #12 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:31 PM

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Afford yes, but F2P players gotta be a lot more careful

So , the real problem is F2P players ?

Ratriq #13 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:33 PM

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View PostKdingo, on 22 June 2020 - 04:27 PM, said:

 

Doing some mental gymnastics to pretend its not the usual rant while screaming p2w between the lines is not anything different then the rivers of tears we get about the topic every month.

If it looks like a turd, smells like a turd then it most likely is a turd no matter how much it tries to pretend its a sausage.

Sure, do I critique gold ammo as a game mechanic? Yeah, I do. I can admit that, but the main intention of this post was to bring light to one of the more popular defences gold ammo has and is currently used to defend it.
By making a public post named after it and breaking down that specific argument on why it's objectively a very weak argument/defence there is still a chance a lot of people who do use this defence to have some second thoughts on continuously use it.


Edited by Ratriq, 22 June 2020 - 05:34 PM.


24doom24 #14 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:40 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 22 June 2020 - 04:22 PM, said:

Again, I'll summarise some of my posts arguments, you can read the post and there I discuss in-depth what makes them pay to win, but in short, they are p2w, you pay more credits to be able to perform better in battles since gold shells have no drawback compared to standard shells.

Now, what kind of players most often have enough money to only fire gold shells all the time? That's right, paying players, players who have either grinded a lot of money with premium tanks, premium subscription or just outright improved battlepass since they also reward you with more credits. Or if you want to go into real extreme lengths, if you've got a fat enough wallet, you can literally buy a bunch of gold to convert into credits at an expensive fee. 
You can bring up but these players aren't paying for- Which still doesn't really work since the majority that can afford using a lot of premium ammo is players like the ones who pay for premium subscriptions, thus because they paid with irl to get more money n' such, they can use and waste more premium shells than your average player.

16:24 Added after 2 minute

Afford yes, but F2P players gotta be a lot more careful on average when it comes to when they should fire them, thus it can easily come into situations where they had standard shell loaded and shot an enemy which it would've penned if it was a gold shell.

Paying players or players that just got enough credits/money to throw at stocking up with gold, don't have to learn this in the same way, since they can afford to lose a lot more credits and still go profit compared to your average f2p player. Thus they can load and waste a lot more premium shells without having a second thought about it.

When I was a F2P player I fired exactly the same gold then as I do now. 

 

Also keep in mind that premium tanks and premium time aren't an exclusive item to buyers only. WG doesn't toss away F2P players like they are worthless scum. WG has given so many opportunities for F2P players to earn premium time and tanks for free as well as giving away huge amounts of credit boosters for free. Did you forget that WG gave everyone 2 whole weeks of premium time because of COVID? Tbh it's kinda ridiculous to think that nowadays F2P players are severely disadvantaged compared to P2P players in terms of credit earning potential. 

 


Edited by 24doom24, 22 June 2020 - 05:41 PM.


Ratriq #15 Posted 22 June 2020 - 05:58 PM

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View Post24doom24, on 22 June 2020 - 04:40 PM, said:

When I was a F2P player I fired exactly the same gold then as I do now. 

 

Also keep in mind that premium tanks and premium time aren't an exclusive item to buyers only. WG doesn't toss away F2P players like they are worthless scum. WG has given so many opportunities for F2P players to earn premium time and tanks for free as well as giving away huge amounts of credit boosters for free. Did you forget that WG gave everyone 2 whole weeks of premium time because of COVID? Tbh it's kinda ridiculous to think that nowadays F2P players are severely disadvantaged compared to P2P players in terms of credit earning potential. 

 

Sure have WG improved and become more F2P friendly? yeah but the giving away premium time cause of covid is a pretty weak argument since when I last looked, a situation like covid has only happened once in the years of WoT cause it's a darn pandemic lol. On top of that the real credit-making premiums are tier 8's and tier 7's which are mostly just "given" away by grinding in timed events that requires a lot of grinding if you want it for free, something your average player will never afford.

Also about you firing just as much gold, that's more on your side, sure you can be an exception but the majority of wallet warriors will earn a lot more and be able to waste premium shells a lot more without a second thought compared to freebies.

Eitherway, p2w at it's core is being able to throw money and get what you want, you can easily buy gold/premium time/battlepasses/premium tanks and earn a bunch of money, with gold you can outright convert it to credits, thus that's how you can find some players that are literally able to only use premium ammo, nothing more other than some he shells.



Alkovich #16 Posted 22 June 2020 - 06:02 PM

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Gold ammo is indeed an issue and War Gaming acknowledged it after 9 years of gathering data. We need to be patient and wait for the fix.

Kdingo #17 Posted 22 June 2020 - 06:24 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 22 June 2020 - 05:33 PM, said:

Sure, do I critique gold ammo as a game mechanic? Yeah, I do. I can admit that, but the main intention of this post was to bring light to one of the more popular defences gold ammo has and is currently used to defend it.
By making a public post named after it and breaking down that specific argument on why it's objectively a very weak argument/defence there is still a chance a lot of people who do use this defence to have some second thoughts on continuously use it.

 

1. Prem ammo is necessary as tests have conducted, remove or change their damage and you break the game. WG broke the game to an extend it can´t exist without it anymore.

2. Anyone can easily afford at least a couple of rounds even as a f2p player, spamming them doesn´t make you win more games. Lots of people made experiments with this over the years and debunked the myth that spamming prem wins you games more often or does make you a better player.

 

Economy management is part of the game, prem accounts make it easier but doesn´t effect your ability to win or impact a battle more then you could otherwise.

 

All you did is "highlight" the fact that ammo prices differ and conclude its p2w, given the experiments people made over the years that tell otherwise, i wonder where is your proof of that p2w claim?



Ratriq #18 Posted 22 June 2020 - 06:34 PM

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View PostKdingo, on 22 June 2020 - 05:24 PM, said:

 

1. Prem ammo is necessary as tests have conducted, remove or change their damage and you break the game. WG broke the game to an extend it can´t exist without it anymore.

2. Anyone can easily afford at least a couple of rounds even as a f2p player, spamming them doesn´t make you win more games. Lots of people made experiments with this over the years and debunked the myth that spamming prem wins you games more often or does make you a better player.

 

Economy management is part of the game, prem accounts make it easier but doesn´t effect your ability to win or impact a battle more then you could otherwise.

 

All you did is "highlight" the fact that ammo prices differ and conclude its p2w, given the experiments people made over the years that tell otherwise, i wonder where is your proof of that p2w claim?

First off, if you did actually read my post which is quite hard to believe, I clearly said that I know premium ammo is necessary for today's meta, the problem I had and have is the fact it's a bad gameplay mechanic in how it's balanced which it's outright better in everything compared to standard shells.

Also, could you mind actually linking me some of those tests you mention instead of just talking about them? Since gold ammo is a lot more impactful nowadays than the old wot, now when we've got a lot more heavily armored tanks with fewer weakspots. So linking some source from 2014 or so wouldn't really do much.



TheJ4ckal #19 Posted 22 June 2020 - 06:37 PM

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You do realise the people paying money are the ONLY thing that keeps the game even in existence.

If you can make a fully free game this advanced for ten years without charging a penny, then I look forward to seeing your billion dollar yacht, as you can clearly print .

 

Stop whining and learn to not get shot so much.

I dont fire gold ammo, so im not a fanboy.

 

Where do you people get off on thinking the world owes you a custom game to your liking.

You CHOOSE to play this, no one makes you.

If you CHOOSE to constantly do something you hate, then you are a fool and an idiot. (Mods: I am stating a fact not insulting anyone personally).



Kdingo #20 Posted 22 June 2020 - 06:49 PM

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View PostRatriq, on 22 June 2020 - 06:34 PM, said:

First off, if you did actually read my post which is quite hard to believe, I clearly said that I know premium ammo is necessary for today's meta, the problem I had and have is the fact it's a bad gameplay mechanic in how it's balanced which it's outright better in everything compared to standard shells.

Also, could you mind actually linking me some of those tests you mention instead of just talking about them? Since gold ammo is a lot more impactful nowadays than the old wot, now when we've got a lot more heavily armored tanks with fewer weakspots. So linking some source from 2014 or so wouldn't really do much.

 

How about you proof your claim that its p2w before you demand others to proof you wrong? I mean after all that should be easy for you to deliver right?

And i read your essay, why i said its the same crying as the average prem ammo topic just different wording.


Edited by Kdingo, 22 June 2020 - 06:59 PM.





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