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Why aren't tier X mediums premium rounds being nerfed?

330 pen in meds is wrong

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KillingJoker #1 Posted 25 June 2020 - 11:34 AM

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I like to play heavies, i like to use armor e combine that with positioning to tank damage and doing that strategically.

 

Unfortunally the game is broken when it comes to super heavies, because despite you allready have the lack of flexibility by having a very

low mobility, the fact you are a huge target, with no camo, and your gun is never the most accurate, makes playing this completely dependant

on their armor.

 

Armor which doesn't really work, when WG decides to give medium tanks, premium rounds that are 330 or 340 in some cases for no reason...

is there even a reason why a medium tank has to have 330 or 340 mm of penetration? 

 

because a medium allready have better mobility, better gun handling, and much better dpm than a heavy... why does a medium also have to brawl a super heavy to a point that it can hit you 2 times for everytime you shoot, and even more anoying since your turret normally in a heavy is slower, that means you have a much harder time to deal damage into more nimble enemies.

 

The most practical example of this is, when you play stuff like the maus or the E-100, when you play this tanks, for your armor to be effective...

normally you have to angle the turret and hull so the armor becomes effective. 

 

Well, effective is obviously a very harsh word, since you can't have any effectiveness what so ever in this type of tank when your armor is only effective around 315/320 mm of penetration even at the most optimal angles and most of tier X mediums have 330 or more penetration.


the most easy example of this is the IS-7, the IS-7 only has 303 mm of penetration and for the sake of experiment, i just entered in a battle

and  angled my maus into the most optimal angle, and sit in front of an IS-7... immediately bouncing 7k in the 2 and half minutes he stayed in front of me around 250 meters firing... would the IS-7 have heat of 340 mm like the 5a or the 277 and i would be dead quikly.

 

And my point is this:

 

We have a game with 4 field classes.


Lights have extreme mobility and extreme view range

mediums shouldnt be overal balanced and combine mobility with firepower (but in reality they OP as F!) 

Heavies should have armor and high caliber guns, but at same time be less nimble than mediums and have less accurate guns

TDs should be clucky in their play but have guns that can destroy everything they shoot at...


This should be the balance... its almost like paper,scissor rock game where each element beats each other.

The thing is, while TDs Ap and Premium rounds are acceptable because they should have firepower to destroy anything.

 

most of tier X mediums and some recently introduced heavies break the game by having high dpm, mobility and at same extreme penetrating

values with premium rounds... which breaks the logic of the game.

 

(and by the way an example of a well implemented tank in the game is the Amx m4 mle 54, because its a heavy with some armor, but its penetration is only 280mm a tank thast none of the lammers like the play because the penetration doesnt allow them to farm easy damage in super heavies)

 

Turn slower heavies obsolete.

 

And my question is... why haven't this been REBALANCED allready? why?? 

 

is there even a reason why there hasn't been addressed? what sort of statistics or data you need to understnad that a medium should not

in theory be cappable of brawlling a super heavy like the maus at 100 meters range and sitll kill the maus before the maus kills the medium

becuase of its insane dpm and high penetration, when the maus player has to angle the tuirret to even expect he bounces anything and then medium simply pull back or getts hull down and even some mediums armor hull down is more efficient than the maus turret.

 

Becuase heat 330+ is broken...


This wouldn't certainly happen if the mediums penetration was maxed out at 300 (which is still more than enough for any competant player to be effective with any medium tank vs anything...)

 

But i allready know... people will start talking about the 279e... and that because of the existance of the 279e everyone needs to have at least 330 pen... when pretty much the reason why the 279e as such insane armor is precisely because its the only way a heavy can bounce premium rounds in the current state of the game.

 

Why is it so hard to rebalance tier X?? what are you afraid off' are you afraid the stupid lamme premium rounds addicts stop playing the game?? is that what your afraid off?

 

Years and years of buffs here and there in older tanks... and all that without ever asking if the problem was really the old tanks, or simply the fact, it giving more than 310/315mm of penetration to anything that is not a TD BREAKS the game.

 

This is the issue here... because, a poorly angled Maus, will still be killed with 300 mm of pen easily, the same if the players use 280+ to hit weaker spots in the type 5 heavy... but the whole structure of this tanks becomes cheese as soon as anyone has 330... and this is something only TDS's should have, not mediums, or not recently introduced heavies.

 

Another rant, that certainly will piss off some lammers in this forum but i don't care..

 


Edited by KillingJoker, 25 June 2020 - 11:40 AM.


Ricox #2 Posted 25 June 2020 - 11:40 AM

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Probably the biggest problem is that top-tier medium tanks are essentially main battle tanks, which are supposed to be the most superior class of post-World War II tanks. But premium ammo isn't just problematic with medium tanks, it needs an all-around rebalance alongside the armor of heavy tanks. There's people who do want to be frontally (and overall) invulnerable, but since most maps are now basically three corridors with little to no maneuverability opportunities, it would ruin the game to balance premium ammo without balancing frontal armor (e. g. by returning weakspots to reward skill while still keeping armor relevant, especially on shots without RNG's blessing).

Kdingo #3 Posted 25 June 2020 - 11:43 AM

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View PostKillingJoker, on 25 June 2020 - 11:34 AM, said:

 

Another rant, that certainly will piss off some lammers in this forum but i don't care..

 

 

Always helpful to end a rant with a generalized "jab" at anyone who could potentially disagree.

I just doubt any of those "lammers" will be pissed about your rant as they are more likely taking pleasure from your "suffering".

 

That said, we still need a prem ammo dump topic like we have for wheelies, spgs, mm...



KillingJoker #4 Posted 25 June 2020 - 11:44 AM

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View PostRicox, on 25 June 2020 - 11:40 AM, said:

Probably the biggest problem is that top-tier medium tanks are essentially main battle tanks, which are supposed to be the most superior class of post-World War II tanks. But premium ammo isn't just problematic with medium tanks, it needs an all-around rebalance alongside the armor of heavy tanks. There's people who do want to be frontally (and overall) invulnerable, but since most maps are now basically three corridors with little to no maneuverability opportunities, it would ruin the game to balance premium ammo without balancing frontal armor (e. g. by returning weakspots to reward skill while still keeping armor relevant, especially on shots without RNG's blessing).

 

I knew it, you didnt even had time to read everything... because i was re-reading my self to check if mispelled anything, and you already replied with the excuse of the corridors maps yada...

 

No one is talking about invulnerability becuase you can't be invulnerable in this game even agains's tier X's in super heaives... the better example of this is how i can penetrate easily any type of heavy with my Lowe (except the 279e obviously for reasons i allready stated in the opening topic)

 

10:49 Added after 4 minute

View PostKdingo, on 25 June 2020 - 11:43 AM, said:

 

Always helpful to end a rant with a generalized "jab" at anyone who could potentially disagree.

I just doubt any of those "lammers" will be pissed about your rant as they are more likely taking pleasure from your "suffering".

 

That said, we still need a prem ammo dump topic like we have for wheelies, spgs, mm...

 

Yes yes... creating a topic that no one reads so people don't complain about anything and the game keeps the same and no one gets upset with people rants.



Balc0ra #5 Posted 25 June 2020 - 11:52 AM

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Well, WG "tho almost 2 years ago" did talk about wanting to address some pen values and alphas on tier X to name a few things, as in to make some tanks more or less competitive. And yes, Russian mediums were one example. The plan was to wait to see what direction the planned gold ammo nerf would take first after their testing, and then based their approach on that. Now considering how that test faired. The first balance changes done after it only focused on ROF or alpha changes on the tier X guns tested so far. So who knows if they still want to, or have plans for any pen changes on anything atm.

 

 



Kdingo #6 Posted 25 June 2020 - 11:53 AM

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View PostKillingJoker, on 25 June 2020 - 11:44 AM, said:

Yes yes... creating a topic that no one reads so people don't complain about anything and the game keeps the same and no one gets upset with people rants.

 

People complain about a lot of things, usually about anything that isn't to their liking and therefor has to be removed/changed cause they want it.

Same with spg, wheelchairs, mm.... a prem ammo dump would fit right in.



KillingJoker #7 Posted 25 June 2020 - 11:54 AM

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View PostKdingo, on 25 June 2020 - 11:53 AM, said:

 

People complain about a lot of things, usually about anything that isn't to their liking and therefor has to be removed/changed cause they want it.

Same with spg, wheelchairs, mm.... a prem ammo dump would fit right in.

 

well i just stated the obvious here.. do you personaly think a medium tank needs 330 mm of penetration as special ammunition?

 

Say yes or no



Kdingo #8 Posted 25 June 2020 - 11:58 AM

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View PostKillingJoker, on 25 June 2020 - 11:54 AM, said:

 

well i just stated the obvious here.. do you personaly think a medium tank needs 330 mm of penetration as special ammunition?

 

Pre accuracy/dispersion nerf : no

Post accuracy/dispersion nerf and this id*ot murazor : yes.



KillingJoker #9 Posted 25 June 2020 - 11:59 AM

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How many of you think the Amx M4 54 is a bad tank because the bigger gun only has 280mm of penetration?

 

again, just stating the obvious... a tank that has some armor, and mobility, and a high alpha gun, that WG decided to balance by giving it lower penetration compared to other tanks

but in the end, no one likes it... why? becuase obviously why would you play that, when other mediums allready have armor, more dpm... gun handling, and even more penetration

 

its a no brainer right? 


The thing is... the amx M4 mle 54 is not poorly made... its simply the others who are OP as F! and all that mostly because of its penetration being ridiculously high with 330+ 

in mediums

 

Agian, even the M4 54 would be much better than because its armor frontally would be more resilient if simply any medium couldn't just load premium rounds to make it cheese.

 

But... again, people like the game like this... its fine like the way it is.. lets pretend this is not an issue... while most of people who know the game avoid super heavies like the plague and restrict them selfs to play the so called meta tanks..

 

etc etc

 



JOHN_691 #10 Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:02 PM

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Outside of spgs and high alpha tds, ht is the most op class.

I think mediums and lights need  buffs, especially bad mediums/lights

amx m4 54 is a very strong tank, people are not playing it because they have to play amx 65t before getting it.


Edited by JOHN_691, 25 June 2020 - 12:04 PM.


KillingJoker #11 Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:03 PM

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View PostKdingo, on 25 June 2020 - 11:58 AM, said:

 

Pre accuracy/dispersion nerf : no

Post accuracy/dispersion nerf and this id*ot murazor : yes.

 

I didn't asked you about accuracy, i asked you if you think a medium tank should have 330 penetration and should have the capability of penetrating the strongest plate of armor

in super heavies like the maus or the type 5 heavy.

 

that was the point of my question... because with dispersion or not... currently any medium tank with full health,, can be sit in front of a super heavy, taking shots

and will kill the super heavy before the super heavy kills the medium, taken the dpm difference and how easy is the penetration for the medium.

11:04 Added after 1 minute

View PostJOHN_691, on 25 June 2020 - 12:02 PM, said:

Outside of spgs and high alpha tds, ht is the most op class.

I think mediums and lights need  buffs, especially bad mediums/lights

amx m4 54 is a very strong tank, people are not playing it because they have to play amx 65t before getting it.

 

So you think the Maus or the E100 are OP is that it mr snowflake? 



JOHN_691 #12 Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:05 PM

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heavies does not only have a lot of armor, but they have a lot of hps too.


Edited by JOHN_691, 25 June 2020 - 12:44 PM.


fwhaatpiraat #13 Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:08 PM

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Balc0ra #14 Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:12 PM

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View PostKillingJoker, on 25 June 2020 - 11:44 AM, said:

 

I knew it, you didnt even had time to read everything... because i was re-reading my self to check if mispelled anything, and you already replied with the excuse of the corridors maps yada...

 

No one is talking about invulnerability becuase you can't be invulnerable in this game even agains's tier X's in super heaives... the better example of this is how i can penetrate easily any type of heavy with my Lowe (except the 279e obviously for reasons i allready stated in the opening topic)

 

You said 300 should be the cap for mediums. You also pointed out the 4 roles. But even then you have sub-roles. Not all HTs are brawlers, just as not all mediums are good flankers. IMO it should be based more on that too. As tbh that's more or less the only valid reason WG have given for why the +1 MM T26E4 got more pen then more mobile +2 MM tier 8 US meds. So I do see your point on the BC 25t, that is fairly mobile, can circle anything, is not a brawler, and still has 330 HEAT as gold ammo.

 

But then again, you also have the Leo that's a support medium, but has APCR "323 pen" as his gold ammo. So there is the ammo characteristics to consider, as his shell will still go off at 70 degrees.



TankkiPoju #15 Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:14 PM

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I would give tier 10 medium tanks 300mm pen at max, sure.

 

But I would also give tier 10 medium and heavies also max 380m base view range.



Kdingo #16 Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:17 PM

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View PostKillingJoker, on 25 June 2020 - 12:03 PM, said:

 

I didn't asked you about accuracy, i asked you if you think a medium tank should have 330 penetration and should have the capability of penetrating the strongest plate of armor

in super heavies like the maus or the type 5 heavy.

 

that was the point of my question... because with dispersion or not... currently any medium tank with full health,, can be sit in front of a super heavy, taking shots

and will kill the super heavy before the super heavy kills the medium, taken the dpm difference and how easy is the penetration for the medium.

 

accuracy/dispersion are related to it like it or not, nothing in wot exists in a vacuum. If you don't like the answer then don't ask a question.

With current accuracy rng gambling prem ammo is simple put necessary. As the only thing that would make it no longer necessary would be weakspots you can reliably hit when aiming. As otherwise there is no point to even take a shot, as all you do is waste credits and handing out steel walls while hoping that a shot not just hits exactly where you aim but also rolls high enough to pen.

To much rng is simply bad.

 

And ultimately your interest to bounce shells will always conflict with people interest to deal damage. Remove prem ammo and everyone drives superheavies derping he at you and you are back at square one complaining that you can't bounce or even sidescrape anymore.



tajj7 #17 Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:25 PM

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Yeh let's nerf all those underperforming medium tanks that are struggling in the meta, that makes total sense.

 

Because heavies don't dominate the game at higher tiers enough.

 

The sandbox has already shown that any nerfs to premium ammo make already good or OP armoured tank even better. 

 

When we have better maps that allow more flanking, not just protected corridors and all heavies/armoured TDs have proper weakspots that are reliable penetrations (i.e like 80-90% chance to pen and are decent size, i.e weak lower plates and cupolas that are not minuscule like the 279es or Chieftains.) to tier 10 guns, then and only then should premium ammo be looked at. 


Edited by tajj7, 25 June 2020 - 12:27 PM.


KillingJoker #18 Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:37 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 25 June 2020 - 12:25 PM, said:

Yeh let's nerf all those underperforming medium tanks that are struggling in the meta, that makes total sense.

 

Because heavies don't dominate the game at higher tiers enough.

 

The sandbox has already shown that any nerfs to premium ammo make already good or OP armoured tank even better. 

 

Such us? please do say... which OP heavies are the ones you are talking about..

Cut your crap, mediums are overpowered to oblivion in this game, they can do everything already and even out dpm a super heavy tank when trading

 

The heavies you are certainly talking about, are not  the ones i am focusing here, mainly the very slow ones that only relly on armor...


I didnt open this topic to talk about chiftains , 279e's, 260's or any other considered OP in the current meta. 

11:46 Added after 8 minute

View PostKdingo, on 25 June 2020 - 12:17 PM, said

 

And ultimately your interest to bounce shells will always conflict with people interest to deal damage. Remove prem ammo and everyone drives superheavies derping he at you and you are back at square one complaining that you can't bounce or even sidescrape anymore.

 

No its not.. my interest is purely to make the game balance and fair.

 

A medium tank has a flexibility a slow heavy doesn't have, a medium tank even have better gun stats, such as accuracy or dpm...

if you allow a medium tank to just penetrate a super heavy with the same easyness than a super heavy can penetrate a medium

than your breaking the balance. simple

 

because the super heavy only relys on armor... if armor factor becomes inexistant because of the 330+ penetration than any medium tank has an unfair advantage

towards anyone who decide to play s slow super heavy

 

This is so obvious, than even you know it, but your too fking stupid and hipocrite to admit it...


Edited by KillingJoker, 25 June 2020 - 12:46 PM.


Kdingo #19 Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:46 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 25 June 2020 - 12:25 PM, said:

Yeh let's nerf all those underperforming medium tanks that are struggling in the meta, that makes total sense.

 

Because heavies don't dominate the game at higher tiers enough.

 

The sandbox has already shown that any nerfs to premium ammo make already good or OP armoured tank even better. 

 

When we have better maps that allow more flanking, not just protected corridors and all heavies/armoured TDs have proper weakspots that are reliable penetrations (i.e like 80-90% chance to pen and are decent size, i.e weak lower plates and cupolas that are not minuscule like the 279es or Chieftains.) to tier 10 guns, then and only then should premium ammo be looked at. 

 

Proper maps will never happen with the map size restriction. As any potential flank route will just place you infront of teammembers of whoever you try to flank.

The only way to circumvent this is by creating mini corridors to prevent the flankers being obliterated by bush wankers... but that would then lead to problem number 1, that corridors are a problem in themselves.



DaniulSims #20 Posted 25 June 2020 - 12:47 PM

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Why do I have a feeling that you've not played a medium/light to see what it feels like to do nothing to a Maus in the middle of a field or any heavy who's driver can connect the two neurons in his head and make them work together.




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