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ct 1.10 TD and Lt equipment


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no_skill_bob #1 Posted 24 July 2020 - 09:47 AM

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i didnt test this one(improved rotation mechanism) in previous ct iterations, so i decided to give ct a go today, so i was thinking if it actually could make a td with terrible dispersion values and turning speed playable? 

so which tank tank to test, quite obvious choice - grille 15, so far it seems like this equipment unit kind of fixes all the terrible things it has - traverse speed and stupidly bad bloom. by the looks of it this is going to be 1 equipment unit, that i will actually use on most tds from now on, if nothing gets changed.  

p.s. i had a giggle while watching one of the newer videos dezgamez made, he said grille 15 has amazing gun handling, i dont know what game he is playing, but i had a good laugh, at least.

 

 

what im not sure about, yet, is will i change any of my equipment setups on light tanks to commanders vision system(camo reduction of enemies) or low noise exhaust(camo incrrease of your own vehicle), has anyone tested these extensively? definitelly not going to use both of them at the same time, as you have 1 scouting slot anyway + you would lose too much on other aspects.

for me concealment buff seems way more substantial than commander vision thing, as you would spot those enemies in open field anyway, with or without that equipment unit, most of the time.

especially on lts with terrible camo, but high vr, like flipwagen and sheridan.

 

another thing - so what is the point of gun laying drive now? i mean i used it in combination with vstab on autoloaders, now it seems like the only use for it is going to artillery i guess? because you can combine vstab with improved rotation mechanism and get more use, havent tested this combination either, so will do i guess.

lol didnt even realize it before - that IRM falls into mobility category as well lol, so yeah -12,5% dispersion + all the mobility buffs, seems a bit OP.

lets say you max out another tank with terrible gun handling:

bc-25t with improved vstab(-27,5%) + improved vents + IRM(-12,5% to dispersion) + vstab directive(-5%), so you basically get like 2 vstabs now lol, as standard vstab give you -20%

 

i mean i dont complain, as some tanks might actually become more enjoyable to play, but we will hit the same wall again - everyone will use 1 or 2 setups, same as now, so the whole idea of making more choices goes into trashcan right now.


Edited by no_skill_bob, 24 July 2020 - 10:17 AM.


24doom24 #2 Posted 24 July 2020 - 10:22 AM

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Foch 155 still misses at 50 metres with 0.29 dispersion. That trash is unfixable. 

no_skill_bob #3 Posted 24 July 2020 - 10:28 AM

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View Post24doom24, on 24 July 2020 - 11:22 AM, said:

Foch 155 still misses at 50 metres with 0.29 dispersion. That trash is unfixable. 

i dont speak about the equipment unit that buff accuracy, that one is improved aiming, im referring to hidden stat buffing improved rotation mechanism.

p.s. i wil go full bananas with bc-25t and mount vstab, irm + egld and see how it goes on the test

edit: its probably more of  a placebo effect, but it does feel quite a lot better :D


Edited by no_skill_bob, 24 July 2020 - 10:53 AM.


FataL_ShadowZ #4 Posted 24 July 2020 - 11:45 AM

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View Postno_skill_bob, on 24 July 2020 - 09:47 AM, said:

another thing - so what is the point of gun laying drive now?

I've not kept up with the new Equipment (barely playing WoT atm) however I would have thought it was still a must have on the Shitbarn unless there is something new that does a better job?



Spartan_93 #5 Posted 24 July 2020 - 11:48 AM

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Well, if you increase the turn speed you will increase the maximun dispersion too.

When you decrease the dispersion per turn rate you will reduce the maximum dispersion.

So. To sum up, the maxium dispersion will stay nearly the same, because 1,1*0,9=0,99.

 

That mean, you just improve turn rates without getting a worse dispersion. I don,t think that is OP.



saxsan4 #6 Posted 24 July 2020 - 12:01 PM

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Fv215b 183

no_skill_bob #7 Posted 24 July 2020 - 12:28 PM

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it just doesnt make sense why an equipment unit that buff turning speed of hull and turret/gun should have 50% of vstab effect as well, its almost like 0bj 268v4 nerf reversing, lol and now i see why they nerfed italians so much, because of this equipment unit pretty much.

sure some tanks still need egld, like the trashbarn, deathstar, bourrasque, some derps and possibly the really fast unloading autoloaders, that will still benefit more from faster aim time - tvp and t57 come to my mind.


Edited by no_skill_bob, 24 July 2020 - 12:30 PM.


azakow #8 Posted 24 July 2020 - 12:42 PM

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View Postno_skill_bob, on 24 July 2020 - 09:47 AM, said:

what im not sure about, yet, is will i change any of my equipment setups on light tanks to commanders vision system(camo reduction of enemies) or low noise exhaust(camo incrrease of your own vehicle), has anyone tested these extensively? definitelly not going to use both of them at the same time, as you have 1 scouting slot anyway + you would lose too much on other aspects.

for me concealment buff seems way more substantial than commander vision thing, as you would spot those enemies in open field anyway, with or without that equipment unit, most of the time.

especially on lts with terrible camo, but high vr, like flipwagen and sheridan.

 

Why to increase "terrible" camo, rather than to make good camo "über"?



Flicka #9 Posted 24 July 2020 - 12:48 PM

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If this goes through I get the feeling alot of people will wait on equiping alot of tanks, untill the BIS settles down to a set or two.

Funny enough, Ragingraptor said that new equipment is a good idea, but while you have things as rammer, vents and vstabs they are not gonna change the game enough.

And must say I agree with his idea of removing rammer and vents from the game, it would slow down the gameplay a bit, which should give a better playing experience to everybody.

And it would actually introduce the "set your tank how you wana play it" setups.

 

But thank you for testing it on the Grille, was wondering for that exact thing, but also too lazy to test it out myself.



Infryndiira #10 Posted 24 July 2020 - 02:01 PM

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My standard scout setup for light tanks is more than likely going to be Commander's Vision System (buffed), Coated Optics and Low-Noise Exhaust. The former two should maximise the tank's spotting ability while the last tries to remedy the introduction of CVS. I don't equip light tanks for firepower on Live in the first place (except for the Derp T49 and Derp Sheridan, they get Vstabs), so it's no loss in that regard for me. Specific LTs can also benefit a lot from a top speed increase; this is especially true for middle tier vehicles with less options and a mediocre top speed, like the AMX 13 57.

 

An alternative setup would be to equip the LT exclusively for firepower, to compensate for a negative, eg Gun Handling. This could work on both autoloaders as well as US DERPs: Improved Rotation Mechanism and Vertical Stabiliser to minimise dispersion penalties, and the last slot going to Improved Ventilation to enjoy further improvements. This can really gut you as a scout, however, as, even if you have an awesome base view range that you push above 445m with stuff like food and skills, you will still be outspotted by any tank with a dedicated spotting kit.

 

I'll also address MTs, since they often overlap with LTs in several fields.

 

For medium tanks chances are I go on a case by case basis. It is tempting to augment mobility or stealth for mediums that can benefit a lot from those; I am contemplating Turbocharger for the T-62A for example, as that would bring its top speed to 55 km/h and its engine power should respond better to both acceleration and performance in steep inclines. A "default" medium setup could be gun rammer, vertical stabiliser, and mobility equipment (Improved Ventilation qualifies, but Turbocharger, Additional Grousers and Improved Rotation Mechanism are all valuable as well, depending on what you want to buff).

 

An alternative would be to ditch the vertical stabiliser or gun rammer for Coated Optics; the former would only work on mediums with very, very good gun handling however, and the latter only if the tank in question has a ridiculous DPM to begin with (typically over 3000 baseline). Such a setup would thus include Rammer, Optics and Vents for a more vision-oriented setup. Certain mediums can really benefit from Low Noise Exhaust as well (for example the T-62A and 140 can exceed 30% concealment on the move and 38% concealment stationary with LNES, skill and paint) so if you want one of your MTs to become a quasi-LT in terms of stealth and vision ability, you can always do that as well.

 

TLDR:

  • For view range builds, Commander Vision System (CVS) is really useful. If you can't stack it with Coated Optics (CO), but you have 445m VR already, it might be more beneficial to get that.
  • Low Noise Exhaust System (LNES) can help counteract CO as well as CVS to a lesser degree.
  • Turbocharger can increase vehicle acceleration and top speed; if either is not an issue, it's more beneficial to improve mobility by using Additional Grousers (AG) instead in all classes.
  • Gun handling still benefits the most by Vertical Stabilisers (VS), but if VS can't be mounted, Improved Rotation Mechanism (IRM) and Improved Aiming Unit (IAU) offer a similar effect. Keep in mind that IRM and VS stack; and that IRM's stabilisation effect might be partly countered by its own improved rotation effects! There might be individual tanks that will benefit more by VS + IAU instead of VS + IRM, and IAU + IRM is a possibility if VS can't be mounted at all.
  • Improved Ventilation is still good, but inferior to other choices if you want to improve one specific aspect of your tank (eg Vents + VS might offer less benefit than IRM/IAU + VS for gun handling, and Vents + CO offer less vision benefits than CVS + CO, but Vents always improve other aspects of the vehicle as well, something specialised equipment can't do).
  • Case-by-case (rarely on LTs and MTs) some survivability equipment might also be of interest depending on if you want to improve track strength, avoid engine fires/ammo racks, etc but these are niche, and more in the domain of heavy tanks.


no_skill_bob #11 Posted 24 July 2020 - 02:15 PM

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View Postazakow, on 24 July 2020 - 01:42 PM, said:

 

Why to increase "terrible" camo, rather than to make good camo "über"?

because there is a huge difference between 33 and 41% camo? especially in combination with 545 - 565 VR


Edited by no_skill_bob, 24 July 2020 - 02:19 PM.


Galaxy_class #12 Posted 24 July 2020 - 02:49 PM

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View PostInfryndiira, on 24 July 2020 - 02:01 PM, said:

My standard scout setup for light tanks is more than likely going to be Commander's Vision System (buffed), Coated Optics and Low-Noise Exhaust. The former two should maximise the tank's spotting ability while the last tries to remedy the introduction of CVS. I don't equip light tanks for firepower on Live in the first place (except for the Derp T49 and Derp Sheridan, they get Vstabs), so it's no loss in that regard for me. Specific LTs can also benefit a lot from a top speed increase; this is especially true for middle tier vehicles with less options and a mediocre top speed, like the AMX 13 57.

 

The only thing I would say about that is, and this is based on the CT server mind, you'll spot a lot more enemies with that setup but there tends to be less people to shoot back at what you spot as you don't have the TD support you would normally have. CVS is a very good piece of equipment though as the cut through camo perks fully kick in the moment someone enters your view range, unlike Optics and Binocs that only steadily cut through camo as the distance closes, (ignoring the max view range of course). I guess what I'm saying is that if you don't mind losing a bit view view range at the edge of your limit then CVS could be a better choice than Optics.


Edited by Galaxy_class, 24 July 2020 - 02:50 PM.


Infryndiira #13 Posted 24 July 2020 - 02:52 PM

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View PostGalaxy_class, on 24 July 2020 - 03:49 PM, said:

The only thing I would say about that is, and this is based on the CT server mind, you'll spot a lot more enemies with that setup but there tends to be less people to shoot back at what you spot as you don't have the TD support you would normally have. CVS is a very good piece of equipment though as the cut through camo perks fully kick in the moment someone enters your view range, unlike Optics and Binocs that only steadily cut through camo as the distance closes, (ignoring the max view range of course). I guess what I'm saying is that if you don't mind losing a bit view view range at the edge of your limit then CVS could be a better choice than Optics.

That is true! But at the same time, CT has a very different meta, both due to the near-infinite resources that allow people to test new things, as well as the drastically different playerbase (mainly from the RU cluster). We'll have to see about Live.



Infryndiira #14 Posted 24 July 2020 - 03:09 PM

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View Postno_skill_bob, on 24 July 2020 - 10:47 AM, said:

i didnt test this one(improved rotation mechanism) in previous ct iterations, so i decided to give ct a go today, so i was thinking if it actually could make a td with terrible dispersion values and turning speed playable? 

so which tank tank to test, quite obvious choice - grille 15, so far it seems like this equipment unit kind of fixes all the terrible things it has - traverse speed and stupidly bad bloom. by the looks of it this is going to be 1 equipment unit, that i will actually use on most tds from now on, if nothing gets changed.  

p.s. i had a giggle while watching one of the newer videos dezgamez made, he said grille 15 has amazing gun handling, i dont know what game he is playing, but i had a good laugh, at least.

I forgot to reply to the TD aspect of the question! My apologies.

 

The way I see it, TDs still have several different possible loadouts depending on their role:

  • Stealth/Bush Camper: Rammer, Camo Net or LNES, Binocs or Optics (eg Strv 103B, Charioteer, Super Hellcat)
  • Assault Tank: Improved Hardening, Rammer, IAU or IRM (eg JPz E 100, T95)
  • Assault TD: Rammer, Vents, IAU or IRM (eg 268, Badger, T95)
  • Balanced TD: Rammer, Vents, Binocs or Optics (eg 268, Tortoise, SU-100)
  • Zoom Zoom: Turbocharger, Rammer, IAU or IRM (eg 268v4, FV 4005; for tanks that had mobility nerfs, or insufficient mobility that can be remedied via Turbocharger)
  • Zoom Turtle: Improved Hardening, Rammer, Turbocharger (eg Tortoise, Badger, T95; for TDs that want to emphasise track and tank survival, and boost low speeds)
  • Doom Turtle: Improved Hardening, Rammer, Spall Liner (eg Tortoise, Badger, T95; same as above, but emphasises survival of crew and less HE damage taken instead of speed)
  • Stop Knocking Out My Engine: Improved Configuration, Rammer, IAU or IRM (eg FV 215B 183, JPz E 100, Jagdtiger; for tanks with frontal engines that are often knocked out)
  • Totally a Medium Tank: IRM, Rammer, Additional Grousers or Turbocharger (eg Charioteer, Skorpion; for tanks that want to emphasise their cross-country mobility)
  • Autoloader: IRM, IAU, Vents or Binocs or Optics (eg Foch; improves gun handling as much as possible)

 

Some more generic categories:

  • Gun Accuracy: Rammer, IAU, IRM (for tanks where low exposure is most important, eg Charioteer, SU-100Y; buffs gun accuracy and improves traverse)
  • Gun Handling: Rammer, IAU or IRM, eGLD (for tanks where final accuracy is most important, eg FV 4005; buffs aiming)
  • Gun Reload: Rammer, Vents, Any (for reload memes, eg ISU-122, Tortoise, Badger; the third piece can be tank-specific, eg Turbocharger or Optics or whatever)

Edited by Infryndiira, 24 July 2020 - 03:29 PM.


facmanpob #15 Posted 24 July 2020 - 07:30 PM

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View PostFlicka, on 24 July 2020 - 11:48 AM, said:

If this goes through I get the feeling alot of people will wait on equiping alot of tanks, untill the BIS settles down to a set or two.

Funny enough, Ragingraptor said that new equipment is a good idea, but while you have things as rammer, vents and vstabs they are not gonna change the game enough.

And must say I agree with his idea of removing rammer and vents from the game, it would slow down the gameplay a bit, which should give a better playing experience to everybody.

And it would actually introduce the "set your tank how you wana play it" setups.

I agree with RagingRaptor too. While there remains a way to increase the dpm through use of a rammer that will always be the go to equipment of choice for the overwhelming majority of tanks.



no_skill_bob #16 Posted 24 July 2020 - 10:58 PM

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View Postfacmanpob, on 24 July 2020 - 08:30 PM, said:

I agree with RagingRaptor too. While there remains a way to increase the dpm through use of a rammer that will always be the go to equipment of choice for the overwhelming majority of tanks.

but then again - remove rammer and there will be vents, remove vents, then its going to be a vstab, remove vstab as well then, maybe remove all equipment so its fair for everyone ;)

its a neverending cycle, really no point to remove anything.



no_skill_bob #17 Posted 25 July 2020 - 08:27 PM

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so been testing fv4005 today, played it a lot on live server and then switched to test - damn, if you put IRM in firepower slot + drop rammer - it actually becomes a lot better than it is now, both mobility and gun handling wise.

bounty vents, IRM(in firepower lsot), bounty egld + vent directive = nearly 2,7k dpm which is kind of low, but raw dpm doesnt mean crap - as many tanks with low dpm has proved that - char futur 4 for example.

But what is important - you get 12,5% better dispersion values on all movement, +2,2 degrees turret traverse, +3,7 hull traverse, 0.36 accuracy. sure your reload is like 3 sec longer, but does it matter, when you spend less time aiming and get higher flexibility? but why drop rammer you may ask? imho in this case - vents are more beneficial, as the tank has crap base dpm anyway and if you actually hit and even pen your hesh shells, thats where your dpm comes from, not from pure reload time. vents improve accuracy and boost VR from 439 up to 454 + 5 with vent directive, which for me seems more valuable than 3 secs on a reload, that takes forever anyway.

 

For all the arty players i would high suggest drop rammer as well - go with vents,IRM,egld  or alternatively on open top ones - iRM, egld, improved aiming/turbocharger. although i really dont like the arty focus in -game, thats what i would use, if i would go for any arta in patch 1.10. just as an example - CGC complete aiming in after full turn takes roughly 12s with this setup. 261/gwe like 8s after full turn.

 

edit: yup seems like autoloader, td setup next patch is going to be clear for now.

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Edited by no_skill_bob, 25 July 2020 - 09:35 PM.


Infryndiira #18 Posted 26 July 2020 - 03:08 AM

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I experimented a little more on CT 1.10 with the FV 4005 with the following load-outs, based on your feedback and some further tests (underline indicates the firepower slot):

  1. Improved Aiming Unit, Gun Rammer, Turbocharger [24,24s Reload; 3,32s Aim; 0,35m Dispersion; 36/10 Speed]
  2. Improved Aiming Unit, Improved Rotation Mechanism, Turbocharger [26,93s Reload; 3,32s Aim; 0,35m Dispersion; 36/10 Speed]
  3. Improved Rotation Mechanism, Enhanced Gun-Laying Drive, Turbocharger [26,93s Reload; 3,02s Aim; 0,38m Dispersion; 36/10 Speed]
  4. Improved Rotation Mechanism, Enhanced Gun-Laying Drive, Improved Ventilation [26,37s Reload; 2,96s Aim; 0,37m Dispersion; 32/8 Speed]
  5. Improved Aiming Unit, Enhanced Gun-Laying Drive, Improved Rotation Mechanism [26,93s Reload; 3,02s Aim; 0.35m Dispersion; 32/8 Speed]

All equipment used was of the standard variety (ie. neither Bounty nor Improved Equipment). The tank was equipped with Food and the crew is trained with Brothers in Arms.

 

My observations are as follows:

  • It goes without saying that the Gun Rammer made its presence, as well as absence, felt a lot. The difference in gun load time between the first loadout and the other two is very, very noticeable at ~2,1 to ~2,7 seconds, even if the Gun Rammer isn't sitting in a Firepower slot. There are times you wish you had reloaded those 2-3 seconds faster, as fighting around you is incredibly intense. This is true both in urban warfare as well as in more traditional overwatch-style positioning. However, considering the FV 4005 shines not in the number of shots fired per minute but in its ability to dish out incredible amounts of damage regardless of the target's armour (and especially if it can penetrate with HESH or overmatch with AP) the Gun Rammer can be skipped by playstyles emphasising optimisation in what shots are taken, as opposed to the number of shots taken.
  • On the other hand, Improved Ventilation feels particularly underwhelming in Equipment 2.0, because it tends to offer a minor improvement at everything when instead you could be specialising at something in a lot more efficient ways. It is a great pair when trying to min-max 1-2 specific other attributes (eg. view range, aim time or dispersion) but if you don't particularly care about such fields, or can pick something better to optimise them, it really loses ground. In the above examples, it only offered an improvement of 0.1m dispersion and 0.06s aim time over the closest equipment loadout, so in the case of the FV 4005 it would be skippable to me unless trying to optimise both aim time and reload time (as per the current Live equipment availability).
  • Generally speaking, the Turbocharger significantly improves your mobility and, indirectly, the survivability. It is very easy to reach and sustain the 36 km/h forward top speed (from 32 km/h stock), while the 10 km/h reverse (from 8 km/h stock), while appearing underwhelming, actually makes a significant difference in urban combat and when peeking. I ended up keeping the Turbocharger for most of my experimental builds, as it effectively reduced my exposure time and sometimes allowed me to take better positions due to the superior power-to-weight ratio and higher top speed. While it doesn't make your mobility great by any stretch of imagination, it certainly offers a very dramatic improvement and it is worth experiencing to make up one's mind for themselves.
  • The Improved Aiming Unit significantly improves your accuracy, and especially when fully aimed. It is very helpful in a more traditional tank destroyer playstyle, where you sit back and fire from a distance; regardless of personal playstyle, this was very helpful in late-game stages when trying to push a base, as well as when trying to peek at relatively close ranges to shoot 183 mm HESH into a weak spot. The nature of this equipment makes it most worthwhile to be paired with the dedicated Firepower slot if used, to maximise the benefits.
  • I have mixed feelings about the Improved Rotation Mechanism. The mobility increase is dramatic: your turret, as well as hull, respond a whole lot better to turning, even when it isn't used in the dedicated Firepower slot. However, I am not sure how much of a difference the dispersion reduction made. Perhaps it is a placebo effect, or perhaps the increase in traverse speed somewhat counters the reduction in dispersion penalties during rotation or traverse. It still feels like it made a difference, however, no matter how little, and it's the closest thing the FV 4005 has to a Vertical Stabiliser.
  • The value of the Enhanced Gun-Laying Drive is unquestionable since it outright improves your aim time. However I would never use it on its own since on its own IAU & IRM both appear to be more beneficial on an individual basis, but it should make for an excellent combination if paired with another or both of the two. Definitely a pick if you want to minimise your aim time overall, but in my humble opinion, in the end of the day, the difference between ~3 seconds and ~3,3 seconds is negligible as the exposure is very long in the first place.

 

In short, I have a definite preference for Turbocharger-oriented builds, as this allows the FV 4005 to play similar to a KV-2 with much better accuracy and traverse ability; but on the other hand, I do find myself missing some of the perks of the traditional Vents/Rammer/eGLD build that can still be incredibly useful in this tank (itself emphasising more reload and aim time than improving dispersion characteristics, like all of the above load-outs do.) I believe that the new Equipment 2.0 system offers a lot more customisation based on individual playstyle, especially as a lot of Firepower options can be overlapped to increase specific attributes to better levels than before even using standard equipment.

 

My personal preferences seem to be gravitating between the 1st and 2nd load-outs, with the 3rd not being far behind. It is difficult to decide whether I prefer 0,3 seconds faster aim or 0,03 m less dispersion at 100 m, but it is even harder to decide if the improvements in mobility and dispersion offered by IRM are worth the loss of 2,7 seconds of loading time for the gun. It is definitely worth remembering, however, that long-range pot-shots benefit a lot more from lower dispersion values than lower aiming time, and since different maps shoehorn you into different positioning and roles, I'll likely ditch the 3rd load-out for one of the former two. Now, as to which, will require a lot more experimentation, but I suspect that the 2nd, with slower reload and better dispersion penalty reduction, will be more all-around considering the various niches this tank destroyer can fill.


Edited by Infryndiira, 26 July 2020 - 03:46 AM.


no_skill_bob #19 Posted 26 July 2020 - 11:00 AM

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while i agree that you can feel the difference of missing the rammer, i used vents, just because of VR and final accuracy increase, otherwise, you can still go for rammer,IRM, elgd setup, but then you have like 20m less VR.

I tried using different setups as well - rammer,vents,IRM and rammer, IRM, egld. But at the end of all i had the better experience with vents,IRM, egld than i had with any other setup. losing 3 seconds of reload is a lot and isnt at the same time, considering how bad the base reload is anyway.

 

Tnx for testing so many different setups though ;)


Edited by no_skill_bob, 26 July 2020 - 11:01 AM.





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