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Italian auto reloader nerf but Bourrasque not OP?


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HMS_Birmingham #1 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:06 PM

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There has been question by some community contributers as to why WG felt the need to nerf the Italian auto loaders namely the Progetto m35 mod.46, pantera p.44, Standard B and progetto m40 mod.46

 

While I cannot comment on the full range of autoloaders I can on the Premium Progetto M35 mod.46 and to be honest I too have to beg the question as to why WG feel that this tank along with the other tanks in the Italian line are over performing and require a nerf when it is clear that there are other tanks they should be paying more attention to. Namely the T8, magazine autoloading French Premium tank, the Bat.-Châtillon Bourrasque which is clearly the currently dominant and arguably most OP medium tank currently at tier 8.

 

Just for some comparrison between the above mentioned premium tanks:

 

Progetto M35 mod.46 with BIA, vents, no rammer ......

3 shot autoloader 240 alpha per shot totals 720 damage in a 4 second burst resulting in a 26.6 reload time and potential DPM of 1620 (if my math is correct) and If you choose to only fire a single shell and wait 9 seconds for reload this will increase to a DPM of 1963 (2181 with rammer)

 

Bat.-Châtillon Bourrasque with BIA, vents, rammer not optional

2 shot autoloader 360 alpha per shot totals the same 720 damage as the Progetto but in only 2 seconds leading to a 20.63 reload time and potential DPM of 1909

 

While the progetto has the option of single or burst rates of fire it's DPM can suffer significantly if you choose to unload a clip in one go. The Progetto has slightly better armour than the French medium but it's still easily penned by same tier and above with some 2 tiers lower also posing a significant threat. The Bourrasque has no armour to talk of, but a camo rating far superiour to many mediums and lights in the game coupled with a mobility advantage over even the nimble Progetto.

 

In the current 1.91 patch, the Bourrasque fills 7 of the top ten spots for damage caused on WOT replays http://wotreplays.eu...d_damage.desc/ 

Neither the pantera p44 or Progetto m35 making it into the top 12, yet WG felt a nerf was needed for balance ???????

 

WG without prompt from the community feel the need to nerf the entire Italian autoloader line in patch 1.10 yet the Bourrasque which is clearly over powered is allowed to continue to dominate t8 medium line.

 

Any and all feedback on this topic is welcomed.

 


Edited by HMS_Birmingham, 29 July 2020 - 05:07 PM.


saxsan4 #2 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:10 PM

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bourra is premium thus cant be nerfed 

 

preogetto 46 is not being nerfed its being buffed 


Edited by saxsan4, 29 July 2020 - 04:10 PM.


HMS_Birmingham #3 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:11 PM

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Progetto M35 mod46 is being nerfed
15:11 Added after 0 minute
Loosing the rammer like the rest of the Italian auto loaders

NekoPuffer_PPP #4 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:16 PM

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View PostHMS_Birmingham, on 29 July 2020 - 04:11 PM, said:

Progetto M35 mod46 is being nerfed
15:11 Added after 0 minute
Loosing the rammer like the rest of the Italian auto loaders

 

Losing*

 

But they plan to buff its reload by 10%, effectively letting it keep the rammer and use 3 other equipment slots.

 

It's a massive buff and should never go live.



Private_Miros #5 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:18 PM

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The tier 8 Progetto is being buffed...

Desyatnik_Pansy #6 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:24 PM

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View PostHMS_Birmingham, on 29 July 2020 - 04:06 PM, said:

WG without prompt from the community fell the need to nerf the entire Italian autoloader line in patch 1.10 yet the Bourrasque which is clearly over powered is allowed to continue to dominate t8 medium line.

 

The Progetto 46 Is not getting nerfed as far as I know with the next patch though, they pulled back on those changes on CT2 Due to the backlash and it is now being effectively buffed as they have buffed the base reloads to be on par with what you would have with a standard rammer, and I have heard nothing about anything else with it in CT3 (which I find scary since the tank really should not be getting buffed).

 

Regarding the actual tanks, I think the Progetto is way stronger than the Bourrasque tbh. Bour is scary if it's allowed to get around to you and blap you in 2s and run, and it can play quite well as a scout of course if there isn't a Light to counter it. But it's paper (I bullied one the other day in my bloody T20 Of all tanks with HE), the gun is inaccurate with a long aimtime (though it does have good softstats, unless it's close range you're probably gonna be aiming for awhile, kinda negating your fast clip) and the lower pen surely hurts it in higher tier battles. I also found playing it in FL that while being small is of course fun, it does lead to some annoying moments where I ended up having to expose my full tank just to get the gun down.

The Progetto meanwhile has good softstats, good base stats, good pen and mobility and then also has an autoreloader. You can play as one of the best Tier VIII Mediums just using the single-shot, then clip the remaining health just to speed up finishing the enemy (it's only 4s for the clip btw, not 6). At Tier VIII, most engagements are spread out enough as well that you can be fully reloaded by the time of the next one and then just do the same, unlike the IX/X Where fullclipping will put you out of action for quite awhile. The only thing the Progetto lacks is armour really.



NekoPuffer_PPP #7 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:27 PM

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View PostDesyatnik_Pansy, on 29 July 2020 - 04:24 PM, said:

The Progetto 46 Is not getting nerfed as far as I know with the next patch though, they pulled back on those changes on CT2 Due to the backlash and it is now being effectively buffed

 

I have this funny feeling that the backlash of it being buffed is substantially more significant than that of it being "nerfed" but WG is ignoring it because that's more convenient. We should've heard something by now. The patch should be only a week or two away.



HMS_Birmingham #8 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:28 PM

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Indeed it is getting "buffed" but consider this.

 

You loose the choice to use directives or even bounty equipment

 

M35 after buff will have with vents and BIA crew a DPM of 2181 if only shooting single shells and awaiting a 9second reload

 

Currently M35 with vents & BIA crew, bounty equipment ramer is a DPM of 2243 add to this orderly an ammo rack  directive equalling in a DPM of 2310

 

That in my opinion is a significant nerf to a premium tank


Edited by HMS_Birmingham, 29 July 2020 - 04:29 PM.


saxsan4 #9 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:29 PM

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View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 29 July 2020 - 03:27 PM, said:

 

I have this funny feeling that the backlash of it being buffed is substantially more significant than that of it being "nerfed" but WG is ignoring it because that's more convenient. We should've heard something by now. The patch should be only a week or two away.


omg is the patch that soon? :O 

 

 



roboslash #10 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:31 PM

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View PostHMS_Birmingham, on 29 July 2020 - 04:28 PM, said:

Indeed it is getting "buffed" but consider this.

 

You loose the choice to use directives or even bounty equipment

 

M35 after buff will have with vents and BIA crew a DPM of 2181 if only shooting single shells and awaiting a 9second reload

 

Currently M35 with vents & BIA crew, bounty equipment ramer is a DPM of 2243 add to this orderly an ammo rack  directive equalling in a DPM of 2310

 

That in my opinion is a significant nerf to a premium tank

 

DPM is very much overrated. And your forgetting that your progetto can have like 500m VR now + better vehicle and gun handling. And Equip 2.0 is coming out real soon which means it has a lot of new options.


Edited by roboslash, 29 July 2020 - 04:36 PM.


saxsan4 #11 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:31 PM

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View PostHMS_Birmingham, on 29 July 2020 - 03:28 PM, said:

Indeed it is getting "buffed" but consider this.

 

You loose the choice to use directives or even bounty equipment

 

M35 after buff will have with vents and BIA crew a DPM of 2181 if only shooting single shells and awaiting a 9second reload

 

Currently M35 with vents & BIA crew, bounty equipment ramer is a DPM of 2243 add to this orderly an ammo rack  directive equalling in a DPM of 2310

 

That in my opinion is a significant nerf to a premium tank


but you gain the use of a whole new equipment slot



NekoPuffer_PPP #12 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:38 PM

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View Postsaxsan4, on 29 July 2020 - 04:29 PM, said:

omg is the patch that soon? :O

 

I'm only guessing... The first Common Test went live 3 weeks ago. It can't be much longer, surely.



saxsan4 #13 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:39 PM

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View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 29 July 2020 - 03:38 PM, said:

 

 

I'm only guessing... The first Common Test went live 3 weeks ago. It can't be much longer, surely.


hello I have rumours august 4h is EU lIVE DATE

 

can we play steel hunter together? 



HMS_Birmingham #14 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:40 PM

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Think it was suggested for the first 2 weeks in August

Desyatnik_Pansy #15 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:42 PM

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View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 29 July 2020 - 04:27 PM, said:

I have this funny feeling that the backlash of it being buffed is substantially more significant than that of it being "nerfed" but WG is ignoring it because that's more convenient. We should've heard something by now. The patch should be only a week or two away.

 

IIRC, someone said there was like a 70-page thread on the RU Forums about the removal of the rammer. Haven't heard anything about their opinions on the buff though. 

 

View PostHMS_Birmingham, on 29 July 2020 - 04:28 PM, said:

Indeed it is getting "buffed" but consider this.

 

You loose the choice to use directives or even bounty equipment

 

M35 after buff will have with vents and BIA crew a DPM of 2181 if only shooting single shells and awaiting a 9second reload

 

Currently M35 with vents & BIA crew, bounty equipment ramer is a DPM of 2243 add to this orderly an ammo rack  directive equalling in a DPM of 2310

 

That in my opinion is a significant nerf to a premium tank

 

This is what the stats of my Progetto show when comparing between the CT And Live. I lost a whopping 7 On DPM, but gained better accuracy, aimtime and gun traverse (not to mention buffs to other characteristics because of Vents). Vents in the Bonus Slot only go up to 6.5%, while Bounty offers 7.5% And Improved offers 8.5%. If I use Bounty or Improved Vents instead, I literally have a better tank than I had before, it is in no way a nerf.


Edited by Desyatnik_Pansy, 29 July 2020 - 04:43 PM.


HMS_Birmingham #16 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:45 PM

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View Postroboslash, on 29 July 2020 - 04:31 PM, said:

 

DPM is very much overrated.

 

Nah can't agree with you on this. DPM is with out doubt king! as long as you can pen that is. 1st shot gets the track and the enemy rattled as he flapps about for his repair kit,  2nd his other track and hey presto he is a pinyata, 3rd takes out his ammo rack, 4th his gunner, 5th his track and 6th the firework display starts as his ammo rack lights up like a roman candle :justwait:



saxsan4 #17 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:49 PM

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View PostHMS_Birmingham, on 29 July 2020 - 03:45 PM, said:

 

Nah can't agree with you on this. DPM is with out doubt king! as long as you can pen that is. 1st shot gets the track and the enemy rattled as he flapps about for his repair kit,  2nd his other track and hey presto he is a pinyata, 3rd takes out his ammo rack, 4th his gunner, 5th his track and 6th the firework display starts as his ammo rack lights up like a roman candle :justwait:


depends what tank though 

 

Meds / Heavies / Lighta / Assult TDs I like DPM but for  paper snipers I am very much alpha is king since tanks dont sit in the open long enough to get more than 2 shots off so better to have 1 big shot 

 

but dpm over alpha in MOST situations 

 

 

 



HMS_Birmingham #18 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:50 PM

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Desyatnik_Pansy  I have no idea how I have come up with my figures? I have used the comparisson thing in the game. Maybe the food makes a substantial difference although this is not something I would even consider using at the cost.



roboslash #19 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:55 PM

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View PostHMS_Birmingham, on 29 July 2020 - 04:45 PM, said:

 

Nah can't agree with you on this. DPM is with out doubt king! as long as you can pen that is. 1st shot gets the track and the enemy rattled as he flapps about for his repair kit,  2nd his other track and hey presto he is a pinyata, 3rd takes out his ammo rack, 4th his gunner, 5th his track and 6th the firework display starts as his ammo rack lights up like a roman candle :justwait:

 

That's more related to ROF than DPM though. Regardless, my point is that a difference of around 100 dpm, while using bounty equipment and directives (which the majority of players do not) traded for a new equipment slot is in no way a nerf at all.

 

 Edit. Looking at @Desyatnik's post, yeah it's straight up a buff.


Edited by roboslash, 29 July 2020 - 04:58 PM.


trispect #20 Posted 29 July 2020 - 04:59 PM

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View PostHMS_Birmingham, on 29 July 2020 - 05:50 PM, said:

Desyatnik_Pansy  I have no idea how I have come up with my figures? I have used the comparisson thing in the game. Maybe the food makes a substantial difference although this is not something I would even consider using at the cost.


He is using optics instead of vents on live. I use bounty vents + rammer + vstab and that’s where the difference comes. In CT you get bonus to vents in special slot.






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