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New possible nation: Hungarian Tech Tree proposal

hungary hungarian tree new nation tech tree proposal

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bbrkrisztian #1 Posted 18 August 2020 - 12:17 PM

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Hello everyone!

I spent my last few months researching the Hungarian army from the interwar period to the early Cold War. I was working on creating a tree that is actually feasible and can make its way into the game. This proposal presents the result of my work.
Special thanks to u/Karosi16 for helping me modelling the wheeled vehicles.

 

A little history

Hungary started developing tanks in 1934 (V-3). The first vehicle that saw service was the V-4, and it was in 1937. In the pre-war period, Hungary joined the Axis Power. Mass-production of the Csaba armored cars, the Toldi light tanks, and Turán medium tanks started in 1938 based on the modified licence of the L-60 and the T-21, in this order. During the war, the Royal Army used the upgraded variants of these vehicles with more powerful armament and thickened armor. They also made several turretless tank destroyers based on the outdated Toldi and Turán tanks. The next new vehicle was designed in 1943, as the engineers had been allowed to study the Panzer V. The new tank was designated as the Tas, but the two prototypes got destroyed by a bomber in the summer of 1944, just before the turrets could be fitted. After the war, Hungary was occupied by the Soviet Union and the government created the Hungarian People's Army which was armed by Soviet tanks, such as the IS-2, IS-3, T-54, T-55, or later, after the Revolution of 1956, the T-72. Information about post-war or Cold War tanks is lacking, but there is small to no chance that there were any vehicles developed independently by Hungary. The only blueprint I found was this in a Czech forum.

 

The potential Hungarian Tech Tree. I have marked the tanks that WG already has information about with an orange tick.

The potential Hungarian Tech Tree. I have marked the tanks that WG already has information about with an orange tick.

 

Frequently Asked Questions

 

Toldi III in Tier IV?

I know, the Toldi III is already in the game as a T3 German Premium Light. It is just so underpowered that nobody wants to play the vehicle. But historically, the Toldi III can easily cope with most of the T4 light tanks. The 40 mm gun with 64 mm penetration is better than ~70% of all Tier IV light tank guns. Although, the rate of fire and gun handling, by all means, should be buffed to the BT-7's level. But soon I will make a dedicated post revealing the statistics of every single vehicle.

 

Turán III in Tier VI?

The Tier V German Gift medium is the prototype version of the Turán III. As for its 75 mm long-barrelled gun, it wouldn't be underpowered, more than 80% of all T6 meds has 76 mm or lower caliber gun. A little characteristics spoiler: https://i.imgur.com/2QMaoYs.png :)

 

Tas in Tier VIII?

In Karika's tree (historian, he has found the Straussler MBT in the archives of the Bovington Tank Museum), the Tas Prototype is in T6. However, in our proposal, the Turán III is the Tier 6 medium. So the original Tas (Karika's Tier 7) will be our T7 Prototype. The Tier VIII won't be the Tas 'Production', as it would be weak tier-to-tier. Our T8 is the Korbuly-variant Tas, mentioned in the book 'Harckocsik és páncélozott járművek típuskönyve'ISBN 963-326-283-6. This model of the Tas is basically reconstructed by Pál Korbuly after the war (the son of the Tas's lead developer János Korbuly), based on oral historical sources. It would use the planned licence-produced 8,8 cm KwK gun from the Panther, as it could have been able to fit into that turret (here are all the historical guns used by Hungary, Name/Caliber/Shell velocity/Rate of fire/Calculated in-game alpha damage/Historical penetration at 100m). Plus, the completion of the medium branch otherwise would be impossible.

 

Historical Accuracy?

I made a chart comparing all tech tree tanks' historical authenticity. Note that not all the information accurate, please correct me if I was wrong. If anyone interested in an actual comprehensive article about the tanks, I highly recommend Marisa Duchêne's (French historian) article in English, or Hebime's writing in Hungarian (or you can use Google Translate). About the vehicles that were not mentioned in these articles, I can share pictures and blueprints that I have or other separate writings. I also have Tankopedia-style tdmedium, and wheeled tank historical descriptions with full-size vehicle preview.

 

Thank you, for reading through, check back soon for the vehicle characteristics!



OreH75 #2 Posted 18 August 2020 - 12:27 PM

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To long to read at work but +1 for the work done so far.

undutchable80 #3 Posted 18 August 2020 - 12:31 PM

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+1 from me also. More TT lines is welcome

Lanrefni #4 Posted 18 August 2020 - 12:56 PM

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There's already enough tanks in the game. The more that get added, the harder it is to balance the game itself.

There's other issues that I would address first,if I were a WG dev.



saxsan4 #5 Posted 18 August 2020 - 12:59 PM

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YES YES YES

 

Please WG more tanks is what we need

11:59 Added after 0 minute

View PostLanrefni, on 18 August 2020 - 11:56 AM, said:

There's already enough tanks in the game. The more that get added, the harder it is to balance the game itself.

There's other issues that I would address first,if I were a WG dev.


there are not enough tanks in the game, new tank lines is what the community get most excited about 

 

the more the merrier 

 

 

Like Pokemons, once you stop new ones the game dies

12:00 Added after 1 minute
Next please add a South African tech tree

_Old_Spice_ #6 Posted 18 August 2020 - 01:25 PM

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Wow, just wow, WG should hire you, that’s a huge work:great:
A while before I’ve heard some rumors info about opportunity to make Arabian-Israel wars tech tree (no matter how it calls) with early prototype of Merkava in the top... good idea as well:)

TheLastTurtle #7 Posted 18 August 2020 - 01:51 PM

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View Postsaxsan4, 

Next please add a South African tech tree


I agree with this one, sounds exotic. +1

 



GalmTwo #8 Posted 18 August 2020 - 02:00 PM

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All for it! +1 from me!

saxsan4 #9 Posted 18 August 2020 - 03:04 PM

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View PostTheLastTurtle, on 18 August 2020 - 12:51 PM, said:


I agree with this one, sounds exotic. +1

 


when mine is done I will post for us all



bbrkrisztian #10 Posted 18 August 2020 - 03:08 PM

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View PostLanrefni, on 18 August 2020 - 12:56 PM, said:

There's already enough tanks in the game. The more that get added, the harder it is to balance the game itself.

There's other issues that I would address first,if I were a WG dev.

The game should be rebalanced from its roots, my work has nothing to do with it. You know, there are a group of developers who are working on the game balance, and there is a completely separate group researching and working on adding new things. There are different developers, personally I'm a designer, but as a hobby, I'm also interested in collecting information about tanks, so I'm not specialized in balancing games.

View Postsaxsan4,

 Next please add a South African tech tree

 That was a bit too sarcastic, Hungary was a militarized tank developing country in the 1930s-40s, just like Czechoslovakia or Italy...

View Post_Old_Spice_, on 18 August 2020 - 01:25 PM, said:

Wow, just wow, WG should hire you, that’s a huge work:great:
A while before I’ve heard some rumors info about opportunity to make Arabian-Israel wars tech tree (no matter how it calls) with early prototype of Merkava in the top... good idea as well:)

Thank you! And where have you heard those rumors? Like Israel was formed in the early Cold War, they didn't even exist during the WWII. Maybe they can have a Tier X vehicle, but like what about the other 9 tiers?


Edited by bbrkrisztian, 18 August 2020 - 03:09 PM.


B_Complex #11 Posted 18 August 2020 - 03:16 PM

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Thanks actually looks amazing! 

_Old_Spice_ #12 Posted 18 August 2020 - 06:05 PM

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View Postbbrkrisztian, on 18 August 2020 - 03:08 PM, said:

Thank you! And where have you heard those rumors? Like Israel was formed in the early Cold War, they didn't even exist during the WWII. Maybe they can have a Tier X vehicle, but like what about the other 9 tiers?

It was...years ago in fact, when WG started to release tanks of 50-60-th (like STB, Strv, etc), that was some secret insiders leaking info;) with names like : Merkava, Magach, Sho’t (Israeli) and Tiran (Egyptian). Ofc they have a lot cloned tanks USA/USSR...

Also, there is a tier6 tank at the moment ingame client - M4A1/FL10 - it was made by French BC company for Egypt (!) forces, and some of them (at least one) been captured by Israel (!)

and now in museum... 

Coincidence? Don’t think so :P

The active Arab Israeli conflict was in between 1948 and 1973, so it’s pretty much fit in nowadays WoT timeline. 
Let’s see:popcorn:



jack_timber #13 Posted 18 August 2020 - 06:14 PM

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Will there be an arty tree? ;)

Nishi_Kinuyo #14 Posted 18 August 2020 - 07:22 PM

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A well thought-out tree using mostly historical designs, prototypes and blueprints and no clones?



bbrkrisztian #15 Posted 18 August 2020 - 07:24 PM

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View Post_Old_Spice_, on 18 August 2020 - 06:05 PM, said:

It was...years ago in fact, when WG started to release tanks of 50-60-th (like STB, Strv, etc), that was some secret insiders leaking info;) with names like : Merkava, Magach, Sho’t (Israeli) and Tiran (Egyptian). Ofc they have a lot cloned tanks USA/USSR...

Also, there is a tier6 tank at the moment ingame client - M4A1/FL10 - it was made by French BC company for Egypt (!) forces, and some of them (at least one) been captured by Israel (!)

and now in museum... 

Coincidence? Don’t think so :P

The active Arab Israeli conflict was in between 1948 and 1973, so it’s pretty much fit in nowadays WoT timeline. 
Let’s see:popcorn:

As far as I know, the Merkava went into service in 1979 (whatever, can be a Tier 10), the Magach 1, 2, 3, and 5 are all M48 Pattons in Israeli service (at best, all of them would be Tier 9/10, not to mention that they will have the same characteristics as the American T10 med), the Magach 6 is a modernized M60 Patton, probably way too modern for the game (the '80s). The Sho't is a British Centurion with a 105 mm gun, it would be another T9/10 replica of already in-game vehicles, so that's pointless. And all the Tiran's are T-54/55s and T-62s in Egyptian service. Just because they have a different name than the original model, it doesn't mean they are really different vehicles. It is really nice that a potential Israeli/Egyptian/Arab tree would have plenty of top tier vehicles, and I'm not against it, but honestly, you can't just put 8 Sherman's to the remaining tiers.(:

And about the M4A1/FL10... It is a Sherman with an FL-10 turret. And sure, it can be developed for anyone, it doesn't affect who actually developed it. Quick example: the British Conqueror was developed for the West German army. It doesn't mean it is a German tank, see? There is no coincidence, it is an American tank with a French turret. And that's totally irrelevant that it was captured by Israel. There were Panthers captured by the Brits, moreover, they are now in the museum too.

And there is no "nowadays WoT timeline". WoT's timeline usually between the 1920s to the 1940s, sure, there are few top-tier exceptions, but those nations aren't armed by American Pattons, British Centurions, or Soviet T-55s... And more importantly, they developed vehicles before and during the war, so that they have Tier 1-8 tanks.

So all in all, that would be really nice to see something like a Western-Asian tree, but unfortunately, a bunch of T10 tanks aren't enough for a full branch. :(

View Postjack_timber, on 18 August 2020 - 06:14 PM, said:

Will there be an arty tree? ;)

Well, Hungary had a 40 mm self-propelled gun based on the L-62 called Nimród, and it even had a further 80 mm development, the Szebeny. But two low/mid-tier artilleries aren't enough for a complete line, so I don't think.

View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 18 August 2020 - 07:22 PM, said:

A well thought-out tree using mostly historical designs, prototypes and blueprints and no clones?

I know, it is unusual to see, but I can confirm you.

As I said, I've made a chart where you can take a look at every model's historical authenticity. More than half of these vehicles went into service or passed the trials, and there are no copies or fictional tanks.


Edited by bbrkrisztian, 18 August 2020 - 07:29 PM.


Marten85 #16 Posted 18 August 2020 - 08:11 PM

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I am quite missing the Nimród from the TD branch, but it would be hard to fit in, especially with that 40mm autocannon. Maybe it could be a low tier collectible. 

iceride #17 Posted 18 August 2020 - 08:46 PM

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View Postbbrkrisztian, on 18 August 2020 - 07:24 PM, said:

 

Well, Hungary had a 40 mm self-propelled gun based on the L-62 called Nimród, and it even had a further 80 mm development, the Szebeny. But two low/mid-tier artilleries aren't enough for a complete line, so I don't think.

I know, it is unusual to see, but I can confirm you.

Uhm... The Nimród as artillery??? I am not a military historian but to the best of my knowledge the Nimrod was originally intended as a light antitank platform redesignated as SP AA when it turned out the 40mm cannot really handle Soviet medium armor.

I would gladly see the Nimrod as some low tier TD. Would be rather unique with its autocannon. :)

 


Edited by iceride, 18 August 2020 - 08:48 PM.


bbrkrisztian #18 Posted 18 August 2020 - 08:58 PM

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View Posticeride, on 18 August 2020 - 08:46 PM, said:

Uhm... The Nimród as artillery??? I am not a military historian but to the best of my knowledge the Nimrod was originally intended as a light antitank platform redesignated as SP AA when it turned out the 40mm cannot really handle Soviet medium armor.

I would gladly see the Nimrod as some low tier TD. Would be rather unique with its autocannon. :)

 

If I'm not mistaken, there are no SPAAG's in the game, so the closest class would be the SPG. But it is just too unique to fit into the TD branch, so it doesn't even matter. It can be added to the collector's vehicles, as Karika said in that article, maybe a Tier IV TD, something like the Pz. Sfl. IV.



DaniulSims #19 Posted 19 August 2020 - 07:03 AM

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View Postbbrkrisztian, on 18 August 2020 - 09:58 PM, said:

If I'm not mistaken, there are no SPAAG's in the game

The Toaster of Doom says hi!



Nishi_Kinuyo #20 Posted 19 August 2020 - 08:21 PM

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View PostDaniulSims, on 19 August 2020 - 07:03 AM, said:

The Toaster of Doom says hi!

Well... technically...

The Type 4 and Type 5 Heavies had an AA shell historically speaking.

That is to say, the 14cm/50 3rd Year Type had the option of firing the Sanshikidan.

https://en.wikipedia...-aircraft_shell)

And the Type 4 and Type 5 Heavies supposedly had that cannon.

 

So going by that logic, the Type 4 and Type 5 Heavies are theoretically SPAAG, although they probably lack the gun elevation to really do so at closer ranges.

But at a maximum elevation of 20°, it had a maximum firing range of 15-16km for HE shells, so...






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