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We need skill based matchmaking

matchmaking skill servers personal rating

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Poll: We need skill based matchmaking (129 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battle in order to participate this poll.

Do you want a skill based matchmaking system?

  1. Yes (40 votes [31.01%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.01%

  2. No (state why in the comments) (89 votes [68.99%])

    Percentage of vote: 68.99%

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unhappy__bunny #21 Posted 29 August 2020 - 10:51 PM

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View PostVaunont, on 29 August 2020 - 08:10 PM, said:

So lets be honest here. How many of you voted no because the like one sided face rolls, afraid of a real challenge?

 

At least those replying with no seem to have an above average rating. Curious why you want to play against noobs instead of players with equal skill.


I voted No because I am unconvinced that SBMM would be an improvement. 

One sided battles happen, balanced battles happen. I see every battle as a challenge. As I don't use XVM I am oblibious, at the start of the battle, as to what skills the other players have. I am happy with that. 



_LongRangeSniper_ #22 Posted 29 August 2020 - 11:06 PM

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View Postzin, on 29 August 2020 - 06:24 PM, said:

Edit: Personal rating is not the most optimal system. Was just an ideal though. I still think a skill based system is needed to improve matches. It could also be separate from normal random battles to see if it gains traction.

 

History would tell us that the chances of you returning to this thread are low. But just in case.

 

http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/590565-skill-based-matchmaking-a-proposal/page__hl__%20skill#topmost

 

Knock yourself out.



ZlatanArKung #23 Posted 30 August 2020 - 05:54 AM

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I voted Yes, because why not try it. But I have no faith WG will do a system that is actually skillbased in a decent way.

Edited by ZlatanArKung, 30 August 2020 - 05:54 AM.


Pitulusu #24 Posted 30 August 2020 - 06:47 AM

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yes, but seems that players who want to roflstamp newbies in they're T67 or alike with 6 skills crew are to many on server.  How can you feel like Rambo when anyone in the other team can take you out easy? they will lose al reasons to play. they are also easy to find, just look at they're vehicles and you will see thousands battles in low tier OP tanks.

PowJay #25 Posted 30 August 2020 - 07:00 AM

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I voted NO, and the reasons are as follows.

 

WoT is WoT. It is based on the concept of RANDOM matchmaking (to a tier/type formula) and if you don't like it- go and play something else.

 

SBMM will not improve a poor player's stats to anything meaningful. A poor player will get matched with a whole team of poor players against another team of poor players and all we will see is pathetic battles timing out because they are all red-line camping or too afraid to actually move more than 10m to the nearest rock in case they get shot. Sure, I will be rid of these people on my teams, but I am sure these individuals will get fed up very quickly.

 

Yes, SBMM will match players more equally and this will be bad for those who can stand out. Unicums in unicum leagues will all start to get much closer to 50% WR. Why should they? They have proven their abilities in battle and deserve their stats. If YOU (whoever you are) don't like their stats and don't like to see them on the enemy team in randoms, then either you can try to be as good as them, or quit- or simply accept that the next battle the unicum platoon is on YOUR team, because the MM is- oh what is the word? RANDOM!

 

Anyone who thinks that MM needs to be skill based because they are an idiot with average damage of 200 HP in tier X tanks needs to have a long, hard look at themselves and ask if WoT really is a game that they want to play. If you (whoever you are) don't like the system as it is- GO AWAY.


BTW, we know MM can be flawed and we all recognise that the 3/5/7 MM was not the dream setup it was meant to be, but I don't need, or want SBMM.



Pitulusu #26 Posted 30 August 2020 - 07:06 AM

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for better ratting press 2, also prem OP food 6 crew tanks... yeah right, skill comes last because RNG can make anyone good or bad! If i'm yellow, i will play agains yellow like me, that means less gold from opposite side. i don't see the proble with poor players against each other, on contrary, they can have possibility to learn in a stable curve because they will not be killed by unicums in they're T67 1 minute after game started. also for unicums, they like to spam gold, take it back from the opponent unicums side. this will be fair in a game , and will be like in any competition, 100kg boxer can't meet 50kg one...

Edited by Pitulusu, 30 August 2020 - 07:10 AM.


Yaccay #27 Posted 30 August 2020 - 07:21 AM

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Skill based MM means games will be more balanced.

Skill based MM means will be less landslide victory/loss.

Some stat-whore player fears of losing their stat.

Yes, winrate will lose its meaning, as winrate will tend to be 50%.

But Wn8, wgr, eff will be still relevant. So they will be able to feed their ego on those stats.



NUKLEAR_SLUG #28 Posted 30 August 2020 - 07:24 AM

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View PostPitulusu, on 30 August 2020 - 07:06 AM, said:

for better ratting press 2, also prem OP food 6 crew tanks... yeah right, skill comes last because RNG can make anyone good or bad! If i'm yellow, i will play agains yellow like me, that means less gold from opposite side. i don't see the proble with poor players against each other, on contrary, they can have possibility to learn in a stable curve because they will not be killed by unicums in they're T67 1 minute after game started. also for unicums, they like to spam gold, take it back from the opponent unicums side. this will be fair in a game , and will be like in any competition, 100kg boxer can't meet 50kg one...

 

RNG might favour a player over one or two battles. Only skill enables a player to be good consistently. 



Pitulusu #29 Posted 30 August 2020 - 07:33 AM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 30 August 2020 - 07:24 AM, said:

 

RNG might favour a player over one or two battles. Only skill enables a player to be good consistently. 


Ok, let skilled gold spammer players with they're 100k battles play against each other, how can a 500 battles player with no skill , no credits, using stock tank, can meet the one which play from closed alpha? where in the world is this fair? it's like playing wow azareth map in you lvl 20 shaman. Start a new account and you will see what you are facing, but keep in mind, you are a re-roll, not a really new player.


Edited by Pitulusu, 30 August 2020 - 07:34 AM.


jabster #30 Posted 30 August 2020 - 08:17 AM

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View PostPitulusu, on 30 August 2020 - 06:33 AM, said:


Ok, let skilled gold spammer players with they're 100k battles play against each other, how can a 500 battles player with no skill , no credits, using stock tank, can meet the one which play from closed alpha? where in the world is this fair? it's like playing wow azareth map in you lvl 20 shaman. Start a new account and you will see what you are facing, but keep in mind, you are a re-roll, not a really new player.


If the game is rigged, as you’ve claimed, then none of that makes any difference as it’s the game that decides what win-rate you’re going to have.



PowJay #31 Posted 30 August 2020 - 08:26 AM

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At one time, you. YOU! You know who you are, decided to download a game called World of Tanks.

 

This game has a specific set up around RANDOM matchmaking based ONLY on a tier and type system. 

 

YOU played that game for long enough to decide that you didn't like this matchmaking.

 

And all YOU have ever done since is moan and moan about it.

 

Simple answer- GO AND PLAY ANOTHER GAME! :facepalm:



Japualtah #32 Posted 30 August 2020 - 08:27 AM

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Once two teams are formed - so queue times don't increase - it is easy to swap one or two players from a team to the other to avoid that very questionable players end up on the same team, good or bad.

This will not change anything to stats for those who care, landslides will still happen, but it will alleviate the frustration and get the forums rid of the same ever-returning topics.

 

And, for the record, how comes some people keep repeating that 'other game' died of skill-based matchmaking?

As far as I can remember, that is a lie, and proves that a lie repeated enough becomes the truth.

 

Cheers.



Gixxer66 #33 Posted 30 August 2020 - 08:30 AM

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Not for me.

 

How do you measure skill and then apply it to MM?

 

Would i get the same MM in T9 ( a tier in which I frankly suck) as I do in T6 or T7 where I play consistently better?

 

If there was no tank to be had in Ranked how many would play it for the challenge ?



BR33K1_PAWAH #34 Posted 30 August 2020 - 08:39 AM

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Big-big fat NO

WoT MM is setup around two concepts - short queue time and similar team compositions. It's impossible to also put skillbased mm on top of those without breaking the whole thing. 

Also, we already know how badly skilbased mm affects wot experience by example of SH.



_LongRangeSniper_ #35 Posted 30 August 2020 - 08:42 AM

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View PostJapualtah, on 30 August 2020 - 07:27 AM, said:

Once two teams are formed - so queue times don't increase - it is easy to swap one or two players from a team to the other to avoid that very questionable players end up on the same team, good or bad.

This will not change anything to stats for those who care, landslides will still happen, but it will alleviate the frustration and get the forums rid of the same ever-returning topics.

 

It's not about stats. There's a huge mis-conception out there about stats. Sure there are players who want to be "purple", and are on their third re-roll trying to get there. But they are way way in the minority.

 

The majority just play the game and stats are a byproduct.

 

Your idea has been floated many times before but all it does is flatten the curve on the trend to a 50% winrate for everyone. Just like at school. The two good footballers go out front and then alternate their picks until the two worst players are left.

Select a random 22 players from the school year every match, and even if there are a 100 players to pick from, eventually all the players will get a 50% winrate. It just takes longer than sticking with the same 22.

 

The issue for a 50% winrate for all, isn't that good players want to protect their stats. Good players don't play CW for the stats in CW. They play it for the competition and the rewards.

 

A 50% winrate for everyone in randoms does not allocate rewards based on achievement, IF the current reward system is maintained. Why should a load of 45% players yoloing around the battlefield and dying in 2 minutes get the same rewards in terms of XP and credits, to two teams of 60% players who work their socks off to win?

 

Because the game is designed around a win/loss dynamic, for SBMM in randoms you need three things.

 

  • A skill measure that wasn't generated under the current system with winrate as a factor (this includes WR, WN8, and PR/WoTR)
  • A reward system that rewards the actual effort put in to win.
  • A matchmaker that gives the same queue times to all players (why penalise good players for actually being good by making them wait longer for games)

 

If anyone wants to step into the nerd zone, here's an insomnia cure.

 



malachi6 #36 Posted 30 August 2020 - 09:13 AM

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Using the term "we" describes the informal logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum.  Where a point is asserted to be correct because a lot of people believe it to be so,  Example, getting caught speeding and saying everybody else does it, is not going to stop you getting a ticket.

 

As to the MM.  Given the random nature of the MM and enough games, the MM is balanced overall.  I feel that some people want a so-called skilled MM because they believe the game owes them something along the lines of less chaos or more wins.  It's not so much the MM rather the feeling of having more control.  Humans as pattern-seeking creatures dislike disorder.



jabster #37 Posted 30 August 2020 - 09:25 AM

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View Post_LongRangeSniper_, on 30 August 2020 - 07:42 AM, said:

 

It's not about stats. There's a huge mis-conception out there about stats. Sure there are players who want to be "purple", and are on their third re-roll trying to get there. But they are way way in the minority.

 

The majority just play the game and stats are a byproduct.

 

Your idea has been floated many times before but all it does is flatten the curve on the trend to a 50% winrate for everyone. Just like at school. The two good footballers go out front and then alternate their picks until the two worst players are left.

Select a random 22 players from the school year every match, and even if there are a 100 players to pick from, eventually all the players will get a 50% winrate. It just takes longer than sticking with the same 22.

 

The issue for a 50% winrate for all, isn't that good players want to protect their stats. Good players don't play CW for the stats in CW. They play it for the competition and the rewards.

 

A 50% winrate for everyone in randoms does not allocate rewards based on achievement, IF the current reward system is maintained. Why should a load of 45% players yoloing around the battlefield and dying in 2 minutes get the same rewards in terms of XP and credits, to two teams of 60% players who work their socks off to win?

 

Because the game is designed around a win/loss dynamic, for SBMM in randoms you need three things.

 

  • A skill measure that wasn't generated under the current system with winrate as a factor (this includes WR, WN8, and PR/WoTR)
  • A reward system that rewards the actual effort put in to win.
  • A matchmaker that gives the same queue times to all players (why penalise good players for actually being good by making them wait longer for games)

 

If anyone wants to step into the nerd zone, here's an insomnia cure.

 


Until you step back from implementing a skill based component to the MM and instead first frame it as what problem you are trying to solve the vast majority of the arguments are basically irrelevant I feel. Only then can you even decide whether a SBMM is the solution, what form it needs to take, what will be the pros/cons and if it’s actually feasible or worthwhile.

 

To put it simply SBMM is a solution to a problem not a problem in of itself.

 

My personal view is that the reasons you normally have a SBMM for aren’t particular problems for WoT due to its format i.e. they’ve solved the possible issues without the need for a SBMM.



Lagalaza #38 Posted 30 August 2020 - 09:26 AM

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SBMM does not work in stopping one-sided battles. One-sided battles occur for a myriad of different reasons but the most glaringly obvious is teamwork. When one team push aggressively in one area of the map at the same time they will either win the flank very quickly or lose it very quickly. This rarely happens in a coordinated fashion but when it does, is usually the reason for quick, one-sided battles. How many times in quick losses do you move to your flank and start playing then suddenly realise the whole other side of the map has collapsed and the enemy are pouring all over your rear? Every time just about. This happens due to a coordinated action that may have something to do with skill bias but not a great deal. More often, one or two players push aggresively but the others do not and those that pushed die while moaning in chat about the lack of support. This leads to a "normal" battle. It's chance and luck whether everyone manages to work together as there is usually little communication occuring until the end game in battles. SBMM will not change this.

Makotti #39 Posted 30 August 2020 - 09:32 AM

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Voted no. There are too much variables in the calculation. For me example, put me in almost any heavy tank and corridor map vs. some mobile medium tank and semiopen/open map. If you use personal rating with those it would show me equally good on those but in real life I'd be quite useless in first example where some players do very good, at second example I'd usually pull atleast my own weight there.

 

IMHO working SBMM would need quite in depth analysis with atleast how player can perform with specific tank and with specific map. Then calculate this same thing 29 times over and mix & match correctly. That would need a huge playerbase and still it would take rather a while to get a match.

 

But what I think would be worth of thinking about considering SBMM is team based MM. I.e. team can have purples and reds but try to make that both teams have them equally. There some easier-to-match method would suffice (personal rating, winrate, younameit).

 

Anyhow, a first tip is to disable XVM :P



WarlockOPain #40 Posted 30 August 2020 - 09:37 AM

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View Postmalachi6, on 30 August 2020 - 10:13 AM, said:

As to the MM.  Given the random nature of the MM and enough games, the MM is balanced overall. 

No. I play different MMO games and the difference is very large. When in other games, skilled players are divided more or less equally,

then here they usually ´´randomly´´ on the same team. It creates 3-4 minute games with the result 1-15, 2-15 etc.







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