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SPALL LINER JOKE AND LIE EQUIPMENT

HE ARTY EQUIPMENT

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StinkyStonky #21 Posted 15 September 2020 - 08:26 AM

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View PostJohn_Wiick0, on 14 September 2020 - 11:44 PM, said:

so i have superheavy  spall liner on my s conq in the right slot which means -60% HE shell ...

No, it's a lie.  SHSLs don't work.

 

My Clan did some training room testing.  We took some E3s and Type 5 Heavies (with and without SHSLs) and got them and CGCs to splash each other.

 

We could see no discernable difference from the SHSL.  The stun was the same duration, the modules and crew were damaged just as often.



Strapps #22 Posted 15 September 2020 - 08:49 AM

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View PostStinkyStonky, on 15 September 2020 - 07:26 AM, said:

No, it's a lie.  SHSLs don't work.

 

My Clan did some training room testing.  We took some E3s and Type 5 Heavies (with and without SHSLs) and got them and CGCs to splash each other.

 

We could see no discernable difference from the SHSL.  The stun was the same duration, the modules and crew were damaged just as often.

 

This concurs with tests run by Overlord_Prime (NA CC) when he produced an overview of equipment 2.0 (source). The only thing about spall liners that changed with equipment 2.0 is the description (same source, scroll to end of thread).

 

The TL;DR about spall liners is that if you've got thick armour all over, it can be worth using one but if you've got thin spots that'll be splashed by a direct hit (e.g. Russian engine decks) at best you're going to save a couple of seconds of stun and maybe 10-20 hp damage.

 

In most cases you're better off using Improved Hardening with a large First Aid kit to improve crew durability and restore injured crew members.



BR33K1_PAWAH #23 Posted 15 September 2020 - 09:23 AM

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View PostJohn_Wiick0, on 15 September 2020 - 03:05 AM, said:

lol explain then 

 

Spall liner doesn't decrease HE dmg after it was reduced by armor, instead it makes your armor more effective at reducing HE dmg. The exact number, in your case "60%" is actually an approximate value of by how much the effectivness of armor is increased. 

 

So, on thick armor plate, like let's say frontal armor of doom turtle, spall liner is crazy effective, making your armor reduce HE dmg from 700 to less than 100. And on a thin armor plates, like SQ engine deck or top of it's turret,  it's pretty much useless. 

I'm speaking from personal experience - i too use spall liner on SQ. Why, would you ask me?

Spoiler

 

Hope this should clear the confusion.


Edited by BR33K1_PAWAH, 15 September 2020 - 09:25 AM.


OneSock #24 Posted 15 September 2020 - 09:39 AM

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I have one on my TOG but not really sure if it helps much. certainly I get some hits to <10HP. maybe some of the new 2.0 modules would be better ?

NUKLEAR_SLUG #25 Posted 15 September 2020 - 09:40 AM

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View PostOneSock, on 15 September 2020 - 09:39 AM, said:

I have one on my TOG but not really sure if it helps much. certainly I get some hits to <10HP. maybe some of the new 2.0 modules would be better ?

 

Turbo-TOG? :)



Rakii #26 Posted 15 September 2020 - 10:49 AM

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I think wording is a bit missleading here.

Spall liner doesn't decrease HE dmg by 60% but instead it makes your armor more effective against HE shells.

 

formula for HE damage

Equation_explosion-damage.png

SpallCoef = 1.5 or 1.6 (50 or 60% spall liner effectiveness)

 

Thicker armor (impacted) means more effective Spall liner but it also depends on HE impact and splash radius.

So it could save you 20 or 200 hp, ....

 

See more here:

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Battle_Mechanics#HE_Shells


Edited by Rakii, 15 September 2020 - 11:07 AM.


24doom24 #27 Posted 15 September 2020 - 11:18 AM

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:facepalm: Really, another thread on this. 

 

Spall liner increases your effective armour against HE splash. It doesn't decrease HE damage directly. 



Fantacuzino #28 Posted 15 September 2020 - 11:24 AM

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View PostJohn_Wiick0, on 15 September 2020 - 12:44 AM, said:

so i have superheavy  spall liner on my s conq in the right slot which means -60% HE shell so how can an arty hit me for 600 damage on my tracks and in a position that is really hard for arty to even hit me also another shell nearly 500 damage on the move , is this a joke?

 

Don't let the bumhats and the trolls on this forum get to you.

 

I have tried Spall Liner lately and I've found the same thing as you did: that it doesn't seem to be doing anything. :)

And that is tested on a Maus, where due to armour thickness the reduction in recieved dmg should be easy to spot.



OneSock #29 Posted 15 September 2020 - 11:52 AM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 15 September 2020 - 09:40 AM, said:

 

Turbo-TOG? :)

 

what like 15kph instead of 14kph ? lol the wind in my commanders hair...



Galaxy_class #30 Posted 15 September 2020 - 12:12 PM

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View PostRakii, on 15 September 2020 - 10:49 AM, said:

I think wording is a bit missleading here.

Spall liner doesn't decrease HE dmg by 60% but instead it makes your armor more effective against HE shells.

 

formula for HE damage

Equation_explosion-damage.png

SpallCoef = 1.5 or 1.6 (50 or 60% spall liner effectiveness)

 

Thicker armor (impacted) means more effective Spall liner but it also depends on HE impact and splash radius.

So it could save you 20 or 200 hp, ....

 

See more here:

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Battle_Mechanics#HE_Shells

 

This is a better answer than mine. :) If the shell hit the top of the turret we can use the following numbers to work this out:

 

0.5 * 1200 [CGC shell damage] * (1-0 [Shell impacts on tank, zero distance]) - 1.1 * 50.8 [Armour on top of SQs turret] * 1.6 [Spall liner in bonus slot]

=

600 [CGC shell damage is halved when it is splash damage and not penetrating] - 89.408 [Spall liner multiplies armour thickness but armour thickness is low on top of turret] = 510.592 damage done +/- 25% RNG.

 

I think I got that correct.

 

 

 



Robbie_T #31 Posted 16 September 2020 - 03:43 AM

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Spalliners only usefull on slow superheavy's

On everything else its not usefull (there's better equipment)

But i agree the 3 arty spam is really annoying.



WingedArchon #32 Posted 16 September 2020 - 05:52 AM

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Well, considering the explanation I think Spall Liner is rubbish for everything.

The only thing I agree with is that it makes sense that SL modifies the armor as it is an upgrade to YOUR tanks ARMOR. But this is an agreemwnt in theory only.

In practice I see no reason whatsoever to mount one, qhere you potentially leave out any of these {hardening, vents, rammer, aiming unit, turbo, 'the other acc thing'}

 

Ooh, honest question: does it also work for against the FVs? I always assumed it does, but now I am not so sure.


Edited by WingedArchon, 16 September 2020 - 05:53 AM.


Japualtah #33 Posted 16 September 2020 - 08:41 AM

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View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 15 September 2020 - 01:03 AM, said:

Spall liner works as described, you just don't understand the HE mechanics. 

 

Technically, you are right.

 

From a game-play perspective, wouldn't it be much simpler/better to have the spall liner flat out reduce the amount of damage taken?

I think so.


Edited by Japualtah, 16 September 2020 - 08:42 AM.


WingedArchon #34 Posted 16 September 2020 - 09:17 AM

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View PostJapualtah, on 16 September 2020 - 08:41 AM, said:

 

Technically, you are right.

 

From a game-play perspective, wouldn't it be much simpler/better to have the spall liner flat out reduce the amount of damage taken?

I think so.

I second that and also suggested as much. 



SuperOlsson #35 Posted 16 September 2020 - 09:39 AM

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Never go for spall liner, it's a useless, passive piece of equipment, if you want a survivability piece of equipment, you're much better off using improved hardening, as it will likely save more you more hp due to increased track repair speed, it also repairs track fully meaning more shots required to track you. On top of that it gives you 10% more hp which is probably more than a spall liner would save you from in an average game.

Nishi_Kinuyo #36 Posted 16 September 2020 - 09:46 AM

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View PostWingedArchon, on 16 September 2020 - 05:52 AM, said:

Well, considering the explanation I think Spall Liner is rubbish for everything.

The only thing I agree with is that it makes sense that SL modifies the armor as it is an upgrade to YOUR tanks ARMOR. But this is an agreemwnt in theory only.

In practice I see no reason whatsoever to mount one, qhere you potentially leave out any of these {hardening, vents, rammer, aiming unit, turbo, 'the other acc thing'}

 

Ooh, honest question: does it also work for against the FVs? I always assumed it does, but now I am not so sure.

HE is HE.

HESH is HE.

So yes, it would.

However it only works against non-penetrating direct hits.



Strapps #37 Posted 16 September 2020 - 10:01 AM

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View PostJapualtah, on 16 September 2020 - 07:41 AM, said:

From a game-play perspective, wouldn't it be much simpler/better to have the spall liner flat out reduce the amount of damage taken?

 

Simpler, yes. Better is questionable IMO. I'd prefer a more comprehensive explanation of HE splash mechanics, highlighting where a spall liner offers a diminished return against large calibre hits allowing players to decide whether to forgo that in favour of more protection against lower calibre HE, such as that spammed by some regular tanks when they can't penetrate.

 

View PostSuperOlsson, on 16 September 2020 - 08:39 AM, said:

Never go for spall liner, it's a useless, passive piece of equipment, if you want a survivability piece of equipment, you're much better off using improved hardening, as it will likely save more you more hp due to increased track repair speed, it also repairs track fully meaning more shots required to track you. On top of that it gives you 10% more hp which is probably more than a spall liner would save you from in an average game.

 

Improved Hardening also increases load capacity by 10% so you don't always have to get suspension as the first upgrade when grinding a stock tank.



Galaxy_class #38 Posted 16 September 2020 - 10:58 AM

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Mostly spall liner isn't that great compared to how it is described but there are some tanks that can benefit from it. I find it useful on the Tortoise where you tend to get arty focused and adding 50% to your frontal armour for HE splash makes quite a difference if they are going to hit you over and over plus it will help with splash damage that hits the ground around the side of your tank. It also helps with people firing HE rounds at you, like 60TPs for example. You need an armour profile that has thick armour that doesn't rely on angling and a profile that tends to catch arty rounds on the front of the tank rather than the top. Most of the time though, there is better equipment out there to mount instead, like improved hardening that others have suggested.

Balc0ra #39 Posted 16 September 2020 - 11:32 AM

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View PostNazgarth, on 15 September 2020 - 01:24 AM, said:

No, just no.

 

Well, he is still not wrong. Spall liners don't work if the shell fully pens. And the British arties have a massive shell arch to get less effective armor some places vs other arties. 

 

View PostJohn_Wiick0, on 15 September 2020 - 01:51 AM, said:

what do you mean it's litterally says -60% he shells so -60% of what and hit my tracks 

 

It doesn't reduce damage by 60%.... it reduces damage absorbed by armor by 60%... The keyword here is absorbed, not reduced.  

 

So if the HE shell hits a weak area with thinner armor, the impact is less vs if it hits a thicker area. As in armor that eats more of the damage. Thus it gets a greater effect on super heavies vs say a support heavy like the 50 100. 



Nishi_Kinuyo #40 Posted 16 September 2020 - 12:13 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 16 September 2020 - 11:32 AM, said:

It doesn't reduce damage by 60%.... it reduces damage absorbed by armor by 60%... The keyword here is absorbed, not reduced. 

Poorly worded imo:

It increases the armour value for the damage reduction by 60%...

As you worded it, you'd actually take more damage from HE by using a spall liner.







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