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Unfair tier differences in Random.

Tiers Gameplay Unfair Damage Balance

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Armoured_Shlong_Dong #1 Posted 19 November 2020 - 04:23 PM

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I'm new to this game but it is very obvious that putting LV 9 against LVL 7 tank for example in a battle is somewhat dubious affair. How it can be considered "fair" or balanced in any way ? Personally I fail to see how it can be even remotely "fair". Since 2 LVLs difference is humongous meaning a LVL7 tank wouldn't do no damage at all at long distance as well as medium distance simultaneously taking huge amount of damage from LVL9 at any distance. So basically a tank allowed which take no damage and deals enormous amounts of damage in any situation. Someone may argue that this happens on both teams but it doesn't change the fact that lower tier tanks still will be confronted with those overpowered LVLs. It's just occurred to me that basically a LVL9 tank is somewhat of an IMMORTAL to LVL7 tank. Also the best games I've had were the ones when all of the tanks were the same LVL. And also I keep track of which tank destroys mine and it is almost every time higher LVL tanks. My question is this : Is this the only way to implement different LVLs tanks in the same game ? Like for real ? As for me I think higher LVLs must have reduced their HP or something or downgraded their armour or firepower and not allowing higher LVLs have all around advantages over lower tiers.

It feels extremely "unfair". Like in the name of what one can have a huge advantage over others by default ? Please share your thoughts on the subject.

 

P.S. Here I answer some of your replies

1) There's an argument that I shouldn't engage higher Tiers - sometimes you don't get to choose which Tier you do engage it can spot you out of the cover and one shot you in any projection front side etc. Also are you serious about target distribution in RANDOM ? Like honestly you do know that 85% of the random matches are complete madness ? Like Tier 9 on your team would simply camp and not even try to TANK as it is supposed to or having like 5 artys    ( I don't have nothing against artys by the way) and 3 tank destroyers camping the spawn or it's vicinity ?

2) Another argument is to fulfil my role on the team - I didn't know there are roles to fulfil in random - try to do that and you'll be called names and what not.

3) Argument number 3 "fair and fun" are subjective. One shot out of the blue that completely destroys you in any projection front , side or angle plus constant voice sayin' :"We didn't even scratched them" is it your idea of fun or fair for that matter ?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Have a nice day and keep on comin' those replies ! ! !


Edited by Armoured_Shlong_Dong, 22 November 2020 - 12:23 PM.


LethalWalou #2 Posted 19 November 2020 - 04:47 PM

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View PostArmoured_Shlong_Dong, on 19 November 2020 - 03:23 PM, said:

I'm new to this game but it is very obvious that putting LV 9 against LVL 7 tank for example in a battle is somewhat dubious affair. How it can be considered "fair" or balanced in any way ? Personally I fail to see how it can be even remotely fair. Since 2 LVLs difference is humongous meaning a LVL7 tank wouldn't do no damage at all at long distance as well as medium distance simultaneously taking huge amount of damage from LVL9 at any distance. So basically a tank allowed which take no damage and deals enormous amounts of damage in any situation. Someone may argue that this happens on both teams but it doesn't change the fact that lower tier tanks still will be confronted with those overpowered LVLs. It's just occurred to me that basically a LVL9 tank is somewhat of IMMORTAL to LVL7 tank. Also the best games I had were the ones when all of the tanks are the same LVL. And also I keep track of which tank destroyed mine and it is almost every time higher LVL tanks. My question is this : Is this the only way to implement different LVLs tanks in the same game ? Like for real ? As for me I think higher LVLs must have reduced their HP or something or downgraded their armour or firepower and not allowing higher LVLs have all around advantages over lower tiers.

It feels extremely unfair. Like in the name of what one can have a huge advantage over others by default ? Please share your thoughts on the subject.

 

Why are you fighting tier 9s in your tier 7? There's perfectly good amount of tier 7 and tier 8 tanks in the same match up. If you meet a tier 9 tank, then try to disengage or help your teammates fight it by tracking it if you can't penetrate its armor.



Private_Miros #3 Posted 19 November 2020 - 04:57 PM

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As bottom tier you fight your similar tiered enemies and/or you are a mere opportunist.

Dealing damage or helping damage to be dealt on higher tiered enemies also earns more xp than fighting same tier or lower tier enemies.



Ghoststalker #4 Posted 19 November 2020 - 04:58 PM

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The first thing you need to consider is that this is a team game, which means you need to think about what kind of role you need to fulfill within your team. If you're at the bottom tier, you should consider playing a support role. Pay attention to where the enemy goes and see if you can identify where the enemy bottom tier tanks go. That's where you have the best chance of doing damage and preserving your own health points.

 

The general rule is that trying to trade damage with a tank that is two tiers above you is bad idea. However, that does not mean that they are immortal. A tier VII may be able to damage a tier IX if the circumstances are right. If the higher tier tank is distracted and you are able to flank them, you can usually hit them in areas where their armor is lower than the penetration values of your cannon. You can choose to shoot premium ammo to increase your chances of penetrating them. 

 

 



lord_chipmonk #5 Posted 19 November 2020 - 05:13 PM

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In addition to what others have said, I would add that playing at tier 7 after ~600 games might be a bit quick. If you're finding it too challenging, drop down tiers a bit and get some more practice.

Orkbert #6 Posted 19 November 2020 - 05:38 PM

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View Postlord_chipmonk, on 19 November 2020 - 05:13 PM, said:

In addition to what others have said, I would add that playing at tier 7 after ~600 games might be a bit quick. If you're finding it too challenging, drop down tiers a bit and get some more practice.

 

Well, after having introduced blueprints and then culling the low tiers what could you expect?

Not to mention that newcomer mission where you can unlock a tierVI vehicle without having to grind through the tree and of course the simple way of buying hightier premiums.

 

It seems that Wargaming addressed the issue of sealclubbing by rushing as fast as possible any newcomers to tierVI and beyond, where they will still be farmed, of course, but at least it can't be called sealclubbing up there.

Of course there might be an economic incentive (for WG) involved as well. At tier II or III you can be horribly bad and still make credits with a standard account, even with a zero damage game (provided you don't shoot too much premium ammo), but starting around tier VII you gonna have to make extra investments to maintain the in-game economic balance.

 


Edited by Orkbert, 22 November 2020 - 04:06 PM.


Miepie #7 Posted 19 November 2020 - 05:41 PM

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View Postlord_chipmonk, on 19 November 2020 - 05:13 PM, said:

In addition to what others have said, I would add that playing at tier 7 after ~600 games might be a bit quick. If you're finding it too challenging, drop down tiers a bit and get some more practice.

Well, they did hand out those tier 7 rentals (Eagle 7, KV-122...) to all newbies for a chance to participate in Battle Pass. Can't really fault the new players for seeing the rewards for that and trying to obtain (some of) them.



lord_chipmonk #8 Posted 19 November 2020 - 06:04 PM

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View PostOrkbert, on 19 November 2020 - 05:38 PM, said:

Well, after having introduced blueprints and then culling the low tiers what could you expect?

Not to mention that newcomer mission where you can unlock a tierVI vehicle without having to grind through the tree and of course the simple way of buying hightier premiums.

 

It seems that Wargaming addressed the issue or sealclubbing by rushing as fast as possible any newcomers to tierVI and beyond, where they will still be farmed, of course, but at least it can't be called sealclubbing up there.

Of course there might be an economic incentive (for WG) involved as well. At tier II or III you can be horribly bad and still make credits with a standard account, even with a zero damage game (provided you don't shoot too much premium ammo), but starting around tier VII you gonna have to make extra investments to maintain the in-game economic balance.

View PostMiepie, on 19 November 2020 - 05:41 PM, said:

Well, they did hand out those tier 7 rentals (Eagle 7, KV-122...) to all newbies for a chance to participate in Battle Pass. Can't really fault the new players for seeing the rewards for that and trying to obtain (some of) them.

 

I'm neither  blaming OP nor defending WG, just offering some (hopefully useful) advice.



Bordhaw #9 Posted 19 November 2020 - 06:23 PM

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View Postlord_chipmonk, on 19 November 2020 - 04:13 PM, said:

In addition to what others have said, I would add that playing at tier 7 after ~600 games might be a bit quick. 

 

That isnt his main account...



lord_chipmonk #10 Posted 19 November 2020 - 06:28 PM

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View PostBordhaw, on 19 November 2020 - 06:23 PM, said:

That isnt his main account...

 

And yet still apparently struggling. :confused:



NUKLEAR_SLUG #11 Posted 19 November 2020 - 06:54 PM

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Even if you're bottom tier 12 of the 15 enemy tanks should be well within your capabilities to handle which only leaves 3 you might struggle with. So don't fight those 3 by yourself. 

rohangaming #12 Posted 19 November 2020 - 06:55 PM

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Nobody still had answered how 2 tier difference is fair or fun. This game is very enjoyable when you are not bottom tier. Why game with healthy population can't afford just to match you with players of your tier or one tier difference? Long queue argument is also nonsensical. How queues were not affected by all premium tanks having premium matchmaking? Why queue times are not affected by allowing premium queue privileges to players?

 

I think, it is that F2P game has to be crappy by design in order to frustrate players and not to be too fun, otherwise people won't be spending any money on it. Look Wargamming, I'm going to pay you money if you allow me to purchase premium matchmaking too.


Edited by rohangaming, 19 November 2020 - 06:59 PM.


Skande #13 Posted 19 November 2020 - 06:56 PM

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"New to the game" 2 T7 prem tanks 600 battles....

 

Other team ahs T7 tanks, shoot them. Pick your battles. LTP before going T7 in premium tanks mostly weaker than Tech tree tanks.


Edited by Skande, 19 November 2020 - 06:58 PM.


SovietBias #14 Posted 19 November 2020 - 07:04 PM

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It isn't fair. It has been discussed for years now. It's just that WG does not care for it as it is an integral part of their monetization scheme. Just like 'stock' grinds.

 

The game would be better without such handicaps, IMO,  but there's hardly any hope for that to happen. 



lord_chipmonk #15 Posted 19 November 2020 - 08:22 PM

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View Postrohangaming, on 19 November 2020 - 06:55 PM, said:

Nobody still had answered how 2 tier difference is fair or fun. This game is very enjoyable when you are not bottom tier. Why game with healthy population can't afford just to match you with players of your tier or one tier difference? Long queue argument is also nonsensical. How queues were not affected by all premium tanks having premium matchmaking? Why queue times are not affected by allowing premium queue privileges to players?

 

I think, it is that F2P game has to be crappy by design in order to frustrate players and not to be too fun, otherwise people won't be spending any money on it. Look Wargamming, I'm going to pay you money if you allow me to purchase premium matchmaking too.

 

Personally, I enjoy being bottom tier. It removes pressure. If you're top tier, there's a certain expectation that you'll "carry" your team as you're in one of the most powerful tanks. If you're bottom tier, not so much. This allows you to try out positions you'd never play normally and generally take risks (calculated risks, not just an insane yolo) secure in the knowledge that if it all goes wrong, your loss won't put your team on too much of a back foot, but if it works you could lever a considerable advantage. Video below shows such a game where I play the IS in a tier 9 match from a few years ago. 

Then again, I used to enjoy taking the old Chaffee into tier 10 matches, so perhaps I'm not the best person to ask...



Ghoststalker #16 Posted 19 November 2020 - 08:33 PM

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View Postrohangaming, on 19 November 2020 - 05:55 PM, said:

Nobody still had answered how 2 tier difference is fair or fun. This game is very enjoyable when you are not bottom tier. Why game with healthy population can't afford just to match you with players of your tier or one tier difference? Long queue argument is also nonsensical. How queues were not affected by all premium tanks having premium matchmaking? Why queue times are not affected by allowing premium queue privileges to players?

 

I think, it is that F2P game has to be crappy by design in order to frustrate players and not to be too fun, otherwise people won't be spending any money on it. Look Wargamming, I'm going to pay you money if you allow me to purchase premium matchmaking too.

 

Fair and fun are somewhat subjective. What may be fun for some, isn't for others. But the more I play the game, the more I can appreciate that the +2 difference allows me to play against a much greater amount of different tanks. The more I know the weak spots of tanks, the less I find myself powerless against tanks that are a tier higher than me. I can also appreciate how the game rewards you with more experience for killing those tanks.


Edited by Ghoststalker, 19 November 2020 - 08:33 PM.


Private_Miros #17 Posted 19 November 2020 - 08:39 PM

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I learned to play with the old M5 Stuart with the 75mm derp at tier 4. The day I soloed a (then tier 9) IS-4 from 400 HP down to 0 when he was capping on Abbey was the day I considered myself finally graduated from noobdom.

 

On a less epic (in the literary sense) scale, I like the variation and the challenge. It is rewarding to carry or at least be useful bottom tier.



lord_chipmonk #18 Posted 19 November 2020 - 08:44 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 19 November 2020 - 08:39 PM, said:

I learned to play with the old M5 Stuart with the 75mm derp at tier 4. The day I soloed a (then tier 9) IS-4 from 400 HP down to 0 when he was capping on Abbey was the day I considered myself finally graduated from noobdom.

 

On a less epic (in the literary sense) scale, I like the variation and the challenge. It is rewarding to carry or at least be useful bottom tier.

 

Awww, I miss the M5 derp. :(



Chuwt #19 Posted 19 November 2020 - 11:07 PM

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Well, it may or may not be fun, depending on your mindset, but it is not in any way unfair, as both teams have a very similar split.

Personally, I derive more satisfaction from damaging a higher tier enemy, sometimes even killing them, than I do from blatting inferior enemies. If it does not work, at least I have tried, and nobody can really moan (although that does not always stop them).

If you can only enjoy a game where you have the advantage, and suceed in using it  then you are going to have a sticky time in many games.

snowlywhite #20 Posted 20 November 2020 - 01:18 AM

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OP - obviously it's unfair, duh. But it's a business strategy, so good luck seeing it gone...

 

It's a way of tryin' to force more into t10 gameplay; so they won't be bottom tier. But then you lose credits, so you need premium and WG is happy. Probably it'd be more profitable for WG - and more enjoyable for everyone - if they'd do somethin' and t10 gameplay wouldn't be so crapinstead of trying the +2MM scheme. However, WG seems unable to do that; so +2 it is.

 

as you can see yourself, there are enough suffering from some weird Stockholm syndrome even on this forum who try to justify this crap.

 

ofc you can't "fight your own tier" or anything stupid like that since their top tiers will usually be in front and you can't teleport in some corner to duke it out with their bottom tiers. But generally learn to play more passively when you're bottom tier. As probably the MM won't change anytime soon.

 

p.s. - t7 is bad; the difference between t7 and t9 is one of the highest right now, after they fixed the lower tiers. At least in t8 you'll have more same tier games. Normally I'd say you're clueless and new and shouldn't play t7 or t8. But, tbh, probably you won't learn much playing low tiers right now either.


Edited by snowlywhite, 20 November 2020 - 01:28 AM.






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