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Unfair tier differences in Random.

Tiers Gameplay Unfair Damage Balance

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LethalWalou #21 Posted 20 November 2020 - 04:17 AM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 19 November 2020 - 07:39 PM, said:

On a less epic (in the literary sense) scale, I like the variation and the challenge. It is rewarding to carry or at least be useful bottom tier.

 

Same here, on top of variation I just treat it as a challenge to be a bottom tier. My personal interest peaked during 3/5/7 because of this. The more you do as a bottom tier the impact it has is greater than in any other matchup. Couple this with choosing to shoot only bare minimum gold, you get a OPM to World Conqueror EU4 type of feel for the challenge. :P



Robbie_T #22 Posted 20 November 2020 - 06:02 AM

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Thats the difference of being top tier or bottom tier.

And being bottom tier dose not mean you are useless.

 

Bottom tier heavy:

-you can make sure your top tier heavys dont get flanked.

-you can still track enemy heavys for your top tier to get a nice shot in,

-And sometimes just being around your top tier heavy,makes the enemy not attack 

 

Bottom tier td

-same as always paper td in the back....

-Assualt td (armored td bottom tier may play sniper also)

 

Bottom tier LT

-Can still spot

-can still support his LT if more enemy tds are on the battle field.

-can still be a game saver in the end of the game.

 

Bottom tier med

-just follow a top tier med and support him.

 

Bottom tier arty

-nothing changes

 

I dont mind being bottom tier.....only annoying thing is....that your top tiers suck bigtime... and blow the game...

And in the end screen are at the bottom of teh xp list.

 

And sometimes you ahve to sacrifice 

Example last week me tier 8 E75TS and a random  tier 10 60TP vs a Jgpz E100 

ME and 60 tp where both a 1 shot for him.....i communcated to the 60 TP im gonna run out take the shot and Die and you finish him off 60 TP

the enemy jg pz 100 had to take the shot (else i would posistion myself behind him andd its over).

HE did  and killed me but my 60 tp finished him and saved himself 1000+hp

I had to make the sacrifice as bottom tier for the greater good of the game.

 

but a lot of people dont understand it.....they play like every hit they take is in RL and refuse to take a hit

How many times i see that someone gets destroyed in a 1 vs 2 batttle becuase the number 2 with full health wont soak a shot 

(you know those guys that have bin sniping on the reddline did nothing whole game....and let the dude that fought his b*lls off and is on 10%health dye.)

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Robbie_T, 20 November 2020 - 06:21 AM.


NUKLEAR_SLUG #23 Posted 20 November 2020 - 06:23 AM

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View Postsnowlywhite, on 20 November 2020 - 01:18 AM, said:

ofc you can't "fight your own tier" or anything stupid like that since their top tiers will usually be in front and you can't teleport in some corner to duke it out with their bottom tiers. But generally learn to play more passively when you're bottom tier. As probably the MM won't change anytime soon.

 

Yes you can because if their top tiers are, as you say, at the front and you blunder into them before your top tiers and end up having to fight them yourself then you were in the wrong place.



StronkiTonki #24 Posted 20 November 2020 - 06:35 AM

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The only unfair thing is when my top tiers are braindead monkeys compared to the enemy's top tiers while I'm bottom tier.

That's really the only reason why I hate being bottom tier. I don't mind facing higher tiers as long as I am able to support some decent top tier players who tank the hits with their hp/armor.



Discontinued #25 Posted 20 November 2020 - 12:03 PM

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It does seem to be a common issue for people new to the game however there are certain tier 7's which do well such as the T29 US heavy, Light tanks and Arty. I often enjoy playing bottom tier as it means i can farm much more damage

 

I still have fond memories of a battle on Westfield whilst I was in my tier 6 59-16 some years ago I managed to get above a Defender and set his engine on fire and watched him burn :playing:

 

As others have mentioned the game now pushes newcomers up too fast not only ruining their experience but also frustrating regular players who naturally got to tier 7-8 and above.

 

It can be galling to see someone with 29 battles and a rental tier 8 who has virtually no idea how to play and who inevitably drags the team down 

 

But that is the state of play in WOT for some time now complaining about it on the forum is not going to achieve anything

 

 



nc30_guy #26 Posted 20 November 2020 - 01:30 PM

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As the game stands now its not worth playing for me a t1 should have everything available to it the same as a t10 educate players from the start and make progression goals so atleast they don't impact on more seasoned players so much.

Robbie_T #27 Posted 22 November 2020 - 07:59 AM

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View PostStronkiTonki, on 20 November 2020 - 06:35 AM, said:

The only unfair thing is when my top tiers are braindead monkeys compared to the enemy's top tiers while I'm bottom tier.

That's really the only reason why I hate being bottom tier. I don't mind facing higher tiers as long as I am able to support some decent top tier players who tank the hits with their hp/armor.

o yes so frustrating your teams bottom tiers play a good game and the top tiers just blow it (like sniping in a top tier heavy from the reddline)

OR a medium with full health refusing to leave his reddline bush to give the finishing blow or atleast make use of his full hp and dpm...

 



thetartanbaron #28 Posted 22 November 2020 - 12:24 PM

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Block Quote

I'm new to this game but it is very obvious that putting LV 9 against LVL 7 tank for example in a battle is somewhat dubious affair. How it can be considered "fair" or balanced in any way ? 

Its fair because we all use the same matchmaker and the pain is shared equally.

Is being -2 bottom tier a fun gaming experience? For most of us it sucks and it really sucks if you play heavy tanks.

IMHO there are two things Wargaming could do to massively improve the gaming experience. Get rid of +2/-2 matchmaking and restrict arty to one per side.



Solstad1069 #29 Posted 22 November 2020 - 03:24 PM

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The worst thing about being bottom tier in your tier 6 medium is when your tier 8 heavies are dead in 2 minutes. Forcing you to spam gold trying to carry the monkeys.

NekoPuffer_PPP #30 Posted 22 November 2020 - 03:42 PM

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+1/-1mm needs to happen.

 

Equal-tier matches are much more enjoyable for everyone.



Ricky_Rolls #31 Posted 22 November 2020 - 05:44 PM

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+2/-2 mm shouldn't exist in 2020, but hey...

GalmTwo #32 Posted 22 November 2020 - 05:49 PM

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View PostNekoPuffer_PPP, on 22 November 2020 - 03:42 PM, said:

+1/-1mm needs to happen.

 

Equal-tier matches are much more enjoyable for everyone.

But... T9's +1/-2 MM...



NekoPuffer_PPP #33 Posted 22 November 2020 - 05:57 PM

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View PostGalmTwo, on 22 November 2020 - 05:49 PM, said:

But... T9's +1/-2 MM...

 

:facepalm: T9's not the problem. Getting to it is.



LordMuffin #34 Posted 22 November 2020 - 06:03 PM

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View Postthetartanbaron, on 22 November 2020 - 12:24 PM, said:

Its fair because we all use the same matchmaker and the pain is shared equally.

Is being -2 bottom tier a fun gaming experience? For most of us it sucks and it really sucks if you play heavy tanks.

IMHO there are two things Wargaming could do to massively improve the gaming experience. Get rid of +2/-2 matchmaking and restrict arty to one per side.

Se should put T1 against T10 imo, that would be fair since everyone get the same matchmaker.

 

It just as fair.

 

For T10 the matchmaker should be: 1 T10 tank and then 14 tanks between T1 and T7. That would be very fair since everyone get the same matchmaker.


Edited by LordMuffin, 22 November 2020 - 06:05 PM.


Chuwt #35 Posted 22 November 2020 - 06:44 PM

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Yes, it would be fair...and indeed, it used to be the case in the game, but I think the current matchmaker is a lot more sensible/reasonable.

I see no real need for change: if this cause for moaning was removed, people would just moan that they were matched against better tanks of the same tier or against higher stat players: if you are convinced the game is designed to dump on you personally, you will see it everywhere..

Fantacuzino #36 Posted 22 November 2020 - 07:28 PM

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View PostArmoured_Shlong_Dong, on 19 November 2020 - 04:23 PM, said:

I'm new to this game but it is very obvious that putting LV 9 against LVL 7 tank for example in a battle is somewhat dubious affair. How it can be considered "fair" or balanced in any way ? Personally I fail to see how it can be even remotely "fair". Since 2 LVLs difference is humongous meaning a LVL7 tank wouldn't do no damage at all at long distance as well as medium distance simultaneously taking huge amount of damage from LVL9 at any distance. So basically a tank allowed which take no damage and deals enormous amounts of damage in any situation. Someone may argue that this happens on both teams but it doesn't change the fact that lower tier tanks still will be confronted with those overpowered LVLs. It's just occurred to me that basically a LVL9 tank is somewhat of an IMMORTAL to LVL7 tank. Also the best games I've had were the ones when all of the tanks were the same LVL. And also I keep track of which tank destroys mine and it is almost every time higher LVL tanks. My question is this : Is this the only way to implement different LVLs tanks in the same game ? Like for real ? As for me I think higher LVLs must have reduced their HP or something or downgraded their armour or firepower and not allowing higher LVLs have all around advantages over lower tiers.

It feels extremely "unfair". Like in the name of what one can have a huge advantage over others by default ? Please share your thoughts on the subject.

 

P.S. Here I answer some of your replies

1) There's an argument that I shouldn't engage higher Tiers - sometimes you don't get to choose which Tier you do engage it can spot you out of the cover and one shot you in any projection front side etc. Also are you serious about target distribution in RANDOM ? Like honestly you do know that 85% of the random matches are complete madness ? Like Tier 9 on your team would simply camp and not even try to TANK as it is supposed to or having like 5 artys    ( I don't have nothing against artys by the way) and 3 tank destroyers camping the spawn or it's vicinity ?

2) Another argument is to fulfil my role on the team - I didn't know there are roles to fulfil in random - try to do that and you'll be called names and what not.

3) Argument number 3 "fair and fun" are subjective. One shot out of the blue that completely destroys you in any projection front , side or angle plus constant voice sayin' :"We didn't even scratched them" is it your idea of fun or fair for that matter ?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Have a nice day and keep on comin' those replies ! ! !

 

Everything you say is 100% absolutely true.

We just got used to it.

 

It is the Status Quo. :teethhappy:

Adapt noob, adapt! :P



Hagane1 #37 Posted 22 November 2020 - 09:22 PM

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View PostArmoured_Shlong_Dong, on 19 November 2020 - 04:23 PM, said:

I'm new to this game but it is very obvious that putting LV 9 against LVL 7 tank for example in a battle is somewhat dubious affair. How it can be considered "fair" or balanced in any way ? Personally I fail to see how it can be even remotely "fair". Since 2 LVLs difference is humongous meaning a LVL7 tank wouldn't do no damage at all at long distance as well as medium distance simultaneously taking huge amount of damage from LVL9 at any distance. So basically a tank allowed which take no damage and deals enormous amounts of damage in any situation. Someone may argue that this happens on both teams but it doesn't change the fact that lower tier tanks still will be confronted with those overpowered LVLs. It's just occurred to me that basically a LVL9 tank is somewhat of an IMMORTAL to LVL7 tank. Also the best games I've had were the ones when all of the tanks were the same LVL. And also I keep track of which tank destroys mine and it is almost every time higher LVL tanks. My question is this : Is this the only way to implement different LVLs tanks in the same game ? Like for real ? As for me I think higher LVLs must have reduced their HP or something or downgraded their armour or firepower and not allowing higher LVLs have all around advantages over lower tiers.

It feels extremely "unfair". Like in the name of what one can have a huge advantage over others by default ? Please share your thoughts on the subject.

 

P.S. Here I answer some of your replies

2) Another argument is to fulfil my role on the team - I didn't know there are roles to fulfil in random - try to do that and you'll be called names and what not.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Have a nice day and keep on comin' those replies ! ! !

 

Hi Armoured_Shlong_Dong, welcome to world of tanks! If you are driving a stock or new tank I get your frustration. I also get it because you only played about 700 battles. Others are right when they say you should try to fulfill your role because you got to get to know your tanks and your enemy's tanks and this takes time and experience. The good old trial and error. If you are driving a tier 7 medium it would be unwise to join a pack of tier 9 heavies to face the enemy's pack of tier 9 heavies for example. Your pen is lower, you got less HP, so try to backup some of your high-tier teammates. Don't go alone at it in such situations. Learn from experienced players, watch replays, including your own to see what you could have done better. Of course, randoms will be randoms and some teams are dumber than your average rocking chair.

 

Once you get the hang of the game mechanics, learn (A LOT) about the hundreds of tanks in the game, their characteristics, their pros and cons, and their roles you'll feel comfortable playing a tier 7 tanks in a tier 9 battle. Of course, not all tanks are equal, not even at the same tier when they belong to the same category. Maus vs object 277 for example. Both are tier 10 heavies but their roles are vastly different and offer a wildly different tanking experience.

 

I also quoted point two of your reply to other players' posts because you are not just being called names for not fulfilling your role properly but also because many players can see your stats (XVM) and know you are new. They see your low wn8 and start their torrents of rage because they blame you for their death or loss of the match. It won't be the last of it. Nevertheless, as you get better you'll feel more confident on the battlefield and have more fun because you know your enemy. Yep, Sun Tzu is relevant, even to World of Tanks.

 

One more thing. I'm so glad that teams aren't 100% balanced equally. It would take the fun out of the game. Variety is the spice of life.


Edited by Hagane1, 22 November 2020 - 09:24 PM.


rohangaming #38 Posted 23 November 2020 - 03:33 AM

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Talks about fun...Heavies become useless. Medium tanks become two shots. Lights are least touched by it, but you have to face heavy and medium tanks with better view range than yourself...Only artillery can be up tiered and still have fun. However being bottom tier is a horrible experience and I'm surprised that people try to justify how fun it is. It is not fun. Your gun can't pen anyone. You don't have a role on a map. All you can do is tag along and hope to get an opportunity to do some damage. When you are top tier heavy tank or medium with heavy armor, you go and do heavy lifting for you team while seal clubbing tanks two tiers lower than you. It is great experience when you are top tier heavy, it is miserable experience when you are bottom tier. Some tanks do a lot better while bottom tier, however some are absolute misery when downtiered. Usually these are slow, low firepower vehicles like British heavy tanks line or otherwise known, hell on Earth. 

 

This system also puts way too much responsibility towards top tier vehicles and requires them to be of equal class. Otherwise, you get those one sided cumberstomps where one team completely dominates another in large part because your top tier players don't know what they are doing and then you can't exactly carry a match with two tiers lower vehicle. You simply lack everything, firepower, armor, mobility, view range to compete. A lot more enjoyable gameplay would be when matches would be balanced reasonably. Where you have a chance against enemy tank. 


Edited by rohangaming, 23 November 2020 - 03:38 AM.


LethalWalou #39 Posted 23 November 2020 - 05:23 AM

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View PostRicky_Rolls, on 22 November 2020 - 04:44 PM, said:

+2/-2 mm shouldn't exist in 2020, but hey...

 

Why not? Care to make an argument for that?


Edited by LethalWalou, 23 November 2020 - 05:24 AM.


Unicorn_of_Steel #40 Posted 23 November 2020 - 07:09 AM

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I had to refrase my reply, i said i didn't care that much about +2 MM but that is not entirely correct. Come to think of it, this is one of the reasons why i mostly play tanks that explode if you so much as sneeze in their general direction. That way i know i can get penned by any tank i meet, regardless the tier. And on meds i prefer above accurate guns so they can at least find the weak spots of those +2 tanks. Stuff like Hellcat, Strv, 74 and e.g. the Panther can still reliably hurt +2 tanks so that limits the frustration. 


Edited by Unicorn_of_Steel, 23 November 2020 - 08:23 AM.






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