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Unfair tier differences in Random.

Tiers Gameplay Unfair Damage Balance

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Peasant_wot #41 Posted 23 November 2020 - 12:23 PM

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I've been thinking that even if WG must keep a semblance of progression with tanks with ever bigger armor and guns, they could drop or reduce the rise of HP/Alpha at higher Tiers. Like a tank a tier above you will probably still have better armor, better DPM better mobility and/or visual range why give it more HP too, as if these advantages are not enough? This also brings to the situations where a Tier 10 LT can take more punishment than a Tier V heavy tank, which is counter intuitive.

vanderkat #42 Posted 23 November 2020 - 01:48 PM

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After the initial reaction of: "Oh, bummer! Bottom tier yet again!" I generally find that, win or lose, as bottom tier I tend to put in a better personal performance, doing more damage and surviving longer than when I'm top tier. Why? I guess it's attitude - as bottom tier I'm more cautious, concentrate more and look for the best way to support the top-tier players on our team, whereas on the (somewhat rare) occasions when the MM puts me as top-tier, caution goes out the window, my play-style becomes more gung-ho, I over-extend and often get destroyed in the first couple of minutes.

That said, the +2 difference seems more significant at some tiers than others, e.g. in Tier IV, I feel comfortable facing Tier VI ........ and Tier V up against Tier VII feels ok(ish), whereas Tier VI meeting Tier VIII is a real struggle.



rohangaming #43 Posted 23 November 2020 - 08:06 PM

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The real two issues are armor pen and relative alphas and health pools. Higher tiers are playing with far bigger numbers in general and this becomes very painful for a lower tier vehicle. When you are playing something as T-34-85 when enemy heavies seem to two shot you and you struggle to pen even mediums, you kinda don't have a role in a match. A simple solution would be strict -1/+1 spread keeping over other priorities and allowing to get back to +2 spread only when there isn't enough people. Otherwise I kinda don't see what can be done as you would have to rebalance everything. You might just give lower tiers more hp in general to help them learn the game, make matches more forgiving and allow more room for error when they are up tiered. 

Edited by rohangaming, 24 November 2020 - 08:40 AM.


Elleriel #44 Posted 23 November 2020 - 10:05 PM

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I would have no problem if MM was fair :

+/- 1/3 battles vs +2 tiers

+/- 1/3 battles vs -2 tiers

and last 1/3 where you are in middle or all same tiers.

 

BUT for now when you play tiers 8 it's about 40 % vs tiers 10, 30 % vs tiers 9 with no tiers 7, 20 % at middle tiers or all tiers 8 and only 10 % top tiers with lowest tiers. 

So MM is really broken and that's one of the reasons lot of people can't learn how to play their tank and their roles in battle. 



Discontinued #45 Posted 24 November 2020 - 12:51 PM

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I could tell you about about how unfair the 725 over under shotgun is in Call of Duty but then anyone can research one, so how is it unfair?

 



Armoured_Shlong_Dong #46 Posted 29 November 2020 - 04:20 PM

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View Postlord_chipmonk, on 19 November 2020 - 06:28 PM, said:

 

And yet still apparently struggling. :confused:

I think that you are struggling to try and be somewhat nice but not very effective for the time being. :(

 



Isharial #47 Posted 29 November 2020 - 04:30 PM

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View PostArmoured_Shlong_Dong, on 19 November 2020 - 04:23 PM, said:

I'm new to this game but it is very obvious that putting LV 9 against LVL 7 tank for example in a battle is somewhat dubious affair. How it can be considered "fair" or balanced in any way ? Personally I fail to see how it can be even remotely "fair". Since 2 LVLs difference is humongous meaning a LVL7 tank wouldn't do no damage at all at long distance as well as medium distance simultaneously taking huge amount of damage from LVL9 at any distance. So basically a tank allowed which take no damage and deals enormous amounts of damage in any situation. Someone may argue that this happens on both teams but it doesn't change the fact that lower tier tanks still will be confronted with those overpowered LVLs. It's just occurred to me that basically a LVL9 tank is somewhat of an IMMORTAL to LVL7 tank. Also the best games I've had were the ones when all of the tanks were the same LVL. And also I keep track of which tank destroys mine and it is almost every time higher LVL tanks. My question is this : Is this the only way to implement different LVLs tanks in the same game ? Like for real ? As for me I think higher LVLs must have reduced their HP or something or downgraded their armour or firepower and not allowing higher LVLs have all around advantages over lower tiers.

It feels extremely "unfair". Like in the name of what one can have a huge advantage over others by default ? Please share your thoughts on the subject.

 

P.S. Here I answer some of your replies

1) There's an argument that I shouldn't engage higher Tiers - sometimes you don't get to choose which Tier you do engage it can spot you out of the cover and one shot you in any projection front side etc. Also are you serious about target distribution in RANDOM ? Like honestly you do know that 85% of the random matches are complete madness ? Like Tier 9 on your team would simply camp and not even try to TANK as it is supposed to or having like 5 artys    ( I don't have nothing against artys by the way) and 3 tank destroyers camping the spawn or it's vicinity ?

2) Another argument is to fulfil my role on the team - I didn't know there are roles to fulfil in random - try to do that and you'll be called names and what not.

3) Argument number 3 "fair and fun" are subjective. One shot out of the blue that completely destroys you in any projection front , side or angle plus constant voice sayin' :"We didn't even scratched them" is it your idea of fun or fair for that matter ?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Have a nice day and keep on comin' those replies ! ! !

 

it is "fair" in that everyone experiences the same.

 

a Tier 7 tank can still fight a T9, still damage it, and still kill it - if you play right. Yoloing a IS-3-II with a KV-3 is a stupid thing to do, but if you support your teams T9, you might well be able to flank it, shoot in the side and kill it. That doesnt mean that will always happen and so, the "2" key is a helpful hand.

the other part is playing to your strengths and making the enemy play in their weaker zones, or just fire HE at it if it is.. there are ways around it.

 

the same thing goes for a T5 T-34 fighting a T7 T29 and alot of other tanks. the T-34 would be stupid attacking the T29 when its hulldown, however it has advantages the T29 does not, namely mobility, camo and viewrange - playing to those strengths is key to defeating it.

 

"So basically a tank allowed which take no damage and deals enormous amounts of damage in any situation."  <-- so what i just said, makes this a moot point. - if your freely going to sit in front of a tank you cant damage who's fault is that? its yours. there are questionable tanks, but many are not invulnerable - 279e's frequently think they are until they get HEAT spammed or HE'd to death, and that is a very powerful tank.

 

 

"It's just occurred to me that basically a LVL9 tank is somewhat of an IMMORTAL to LVL7 tank" , and yet they are not.

 

"As for me I think higher LVLs must have reduced their HP or something or downgraded their armour or firepower and not allowing higher LVLs have all around advantages over lower tiers." that is the point of a higher tier tank. to have an advantage over lower tiers. it does however not make them completely immune. yolo your KV-3 across the field on Malinovka VS T5's and you will die just as quickly as if you were doing the same VS T9's. 

 

 

as to the bullet points below?

 

1) depends on the tank. you can still spot, de track, or simply hide away until you can see a side or rear shot and ambush them. you can pick a flank, but you must consider the chances of what might appear there.

yesterday i tooned with a fellow clan member and we took our IS-2S (mine) and VK45 south on Mannerhiem line in a T6-8 game - i would have gone north but we decided on south - south was exactly where the enemy T8 meds turned up whereas they could well have gone north.

 

i figured they would go there before the countdown stopped because top tier, and the advantage over some T7 heavies they'd have. we really should have camped back and let them take south.

 

we lost and failed that battle, and it could have gone alot better had we chosen a different path. its about where and what you do more than the tier your tank is.

 

2)"furfilling a role" is only suitable when your tank can do that role (as well as you personally) - no point taking a heavy tank to the town, when your alone and your playing something with little armour. Also no point trying to basecamp a Maus either as your armour (your only strength) would be easily countered by angles.

 

3) fair is that you also have the chance in doing so to others. - fair doesnt care about tier or tank. it treats all the same.

 

 

 

 

15:33 Added after 2 minute

View Postvanderkat, on 23 November 2020 - 01:48 PM, said:

After the initial reaction of: "Oh, bummer! Bottom tier yet again!" I generally find that, win or lose, as bottom tier I tend to put in a better personal performance, doing more damage and surviving longer than when I'm top tier. Why? I guess it's attitude - as bottom tier I'm more cautious, concentrate more and look for the best way to support the top-tier players on our team, whereas on the (somewhat rare) occasions when the MM puts me as top-tier, caution goes out the window, my play-style becomes more gung-ho, I over-extend and often get destroyed in the first couple of minutes.

That said, the +2 difference seems more significant at some tiers than others, e.g. in Tier IV, I feel comfortable facing Tier VI ........ and Tier V up against Tier VII feels ok(ish), whereas Tier VI meeting Tier VIII is a real struggle.

 

+2MM has often given me some very nice results, and likewise being toptier hasnt resulted in a stomp either, in fact quite the opposite.

 

T8 - T10 is a huge gap, as is T6-T8, however that doesnt make your tank useless, if anything, some people simply ignore you simply because you are bottom tier - and thats when you can have some very good games



Private_Miros #48 Posted 29 November 2020 - 04:39 PM

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View PostIsharial, on 29 November 2020 - 03:30 PM, said:

15:33 Added after 2 minute

 

+2MM has often given me some very nice results, and likewise being toptier hasnt resulted in a stomp either, in fact quite the opposite.

 

T8 - T10 is a huge gap, as is T6-T8, however that doesnt make your tank useless, if anything, some people simply ignore you simply because you are bottom tier - and thats when you can have some very good games

 

I think tank balance in general could be better and have advocated in the past to spread out the tiers more over 12 tiers instead of 10, allowing the gaps to be less big.

 

IMO the HP buff in tier 6 has made those more relevant in tier 8 battles. On top off that, there are generally only 3 tier 8s in battles like that, and only rarely one which you cannot penetrate.

Tier 8 to 10 is IMO a much bigger gap still, and tier 10 balance being not the best doesn't contribute well to that either.



iuytr #49 Posted 29 November 2020 - 04:47 PM

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View PostOrkbert, on 19 November 2020 - 05:38 PM, said:

 

Well, after having introduced blueprints and then culling the low tiers what could you expect?

Not to mention that newcomer mission where you can unlock a tierVI vehicle without having to grind through the tree and of course the simple way of buying hightier premiums.

 

It seems that Wargaming addressed the issue of sealclubbing by rushing as fast as possible any newcomers to tierVI and beyond, where they will still be farmed, of course, but at least it can't be called sealclubbing up there.

Of course there might be an economic incentive (for WG) involved as well. At tier II or III you can be horribly bad and still make credits with a standard account, even with a zero damage game (provided you don't shoot too much premium ammo), but starting around tier VII you gonna have to make extra investments to maintain the in-game economic balance.

 

 

Clever manipulation of gamer psychology by WG. Most computer games have a model starting at a low level and you do stuff to "progress" to the next level. So newbies start off expecting this to be the case, missing out on huge enjoyable chunks of the game experience in doing so. 


Edited by iuytr, 29 November 2020 - 04:47 PM.


NUKLEAR_SLUG #50 Posted 29 November 2020 - 05:15 PM

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View PostPrivate_Miros, on 29 November 2020 - 04:39 PM, said:

 

I think tank balance in general could be better and have advocated in the past to spread out the tiers more over 12 tiers instead of 10, allowing the gaps to be less big.

 

IMO the HP buff in tier 6 has made those more relevant in tier 8 battles. On top off that, there are generally only 3 tier 8s in battles like that, and only rarely one which you cannot penetrate.

Tier 8 to 10 is IMO a much bigger gap still, and tier 10 balance being not the best doesn't contribute well to that either.

 

I think hitpoint pools should be brought more in line in general. As a tier 10 Maus for example you already benefit from immense armour and better gun stats, why do you also need to have 30% extra hitpoints?



Chuwt #51 Posted 29 November 2020 - 06:15 PM

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View PostArmoured_Shlong_Dong, on 29 November 2020 - 03:47 PM, said:

 

On a side note  solutions are endless starting for example with the limit of the games a player forced to play as a lower Tier (let's say maximum 2 games out 10).

 

This shows you are just not thinking....if you were only bottom tier in 2 out of every 10 games, and half the tanks are bottom tier, how exactly would that work.

Either they would have to reduce the number of bottom tier tanks in each game to 3 , in which case they would be even less able to play against their own tier, or avoid higher tiers, or else you would be constantly bumped down the game priority for a slot to allow the bigger boys to play.

You need to get away from the idea that the current matchmaker is "unfair"...it is not. Being at bottom tier is the norm, and it is a norm shared by the majority on both teams in the majority of games. It may change in the future, but I doubt it will any time soon. You really have to learn to deal with it, if not make the best of it, or if you cannot, stop playing...but that would be the foolish solution if you actually enjoy the game.



Immensive #52 Posted 29 November 2020 - 06:21 PM

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Removed some post that violated the rules, including personal attacks and non-constructive posts.

LordMuffin #53 Posted 30 November 2020 - 12:01 AM

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View PostChuwt, on 29 November 2020 - 06:15 PM, said:

 

This shows you are just not thinking....if you were only bottom tier in 2 out of every 10 games, and half the tanks are bottom tier, how exactly would that work.

Either they would have to reduce the number of bottom tier tanks in each game to 3 , in which case they would be even less able to play against their own tier, or avoid higher tiers, or else you would be constantly bumped down the game priority for a slot to allow the bigger boys to play.

You need to get away from the idea that the current matchmaker is "unfair"...it is not. Being at bottom tier is the norm, and it is a norm shared by the majority on both teams in the majority of games. It may change in the future, but I doubt it will any time soon. You really have to learn to deal with it, if not make the best of it, or if you cannot, stop playing...but that would be the foolish solution if you actually enjoy the game.

Just make it so half team isn't bottom tier.

 

Current matchmaker is pretty bad, and WG should go back to the one used before the template one we have right now. As that one had many advantages, one being. You where top tier roughly 1/3 games, mid tier 1/3 and bottom tier 1/3.


Edited by LordMuffin, 30 November 2020 - 12:02 AM.


PowJay #54 Posted 30 November 2020 - 09:37 AM

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Do you know something? WG created a tank battle game with three tier spread. (This after some changes to MM many years ago before even I started) 

 

YOU, yes YOU chose to play it.

 

Don't like it?


GO AWAY!

 

Nobody asked you to play and stay.

 

It really is THAT simple.



DuncaN_101 #55 Posted 30 November 2020 - 09:47 AM

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Yeah why not... Take away one of the last challenges in this game and dumb it down more why not.

I take great joy out of damaging and even killing tanks 2 tiers higher then me.
The added xp bonus makes it even better.

General_Jack_D_Ripper #56 Posted 30 November 2020 - 10:34 AM

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View PostArmoured_Shlong_Dong, on 19 November 2020 - 04:23 PM, said:

P.S. Here I answer some of your replies

1) There's an argument that I shouldn't engage higher Tiers - sometimes you don't get to choose which Tier you do engage it can spot you out of the cover and one shot you in any projection front side etc. Also are you serious about target distribution in RANDOM ? Like honestly you do know that 85% of the random matches are complete madness ? Like Tier 9 on your team would simply camp and not even try to TANK as it is supposed to or having like 5 artys    ( I don't have nothing against artys by the way) and 3 tank destroyers camping the spawn or it's vicinity ?

2) Another argument is to fulfil my role on the team - I didn't know there are roles to fulfil in random - try to do that and you'll be called names and what not.

3) Argument number 3 "fair and fun" are subjective. One shot out of the blue that completely destroys you in any projection front , side or angle plus constant voice sayin' :"We didn't even scratched them" is it your idea of fun or fair for that matter ?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Have a nice day and keep on comin' those replies ! ! !

 

The problem with these is: "Your arguments are invalid because I said so."

 

You do not even try to argument.

1. Yes, it is annoying, but with experience you can predict a little where to go. There are only a handful of tanks which really suffer from being lowest tiers and these are usually tanks which trade mobility for excessive armor.

2- Yes, there are roles to be fullfilled in randoms. If you have problems engaging higher tiers, go and protect the biggest and meanest tank in your team. Be his little sidekick, engage enemies just after they shot and keep him from being flanked. That's the way I played HWK 12, because it cannot fullfill the scout role. But is a supreme annoying moscito.

After all, do not look at others and think: "They are not fulfilling their role." Try and search for ways you may fulfill your role. And it may not always be the cliché way to play a certain tank class.

3. You may put some premium rounds in your tanks (keep the profit in mind, do not overdo it), you may check weaknesses on www.tanks.gg that also helps. You may play smart and outflank your opponents and starting at around 90mm HE can do some good damage.

If using HE, keep in mind, that it does most damage, if the blow touches weak armor. Certain tanks have weak amror on top of the hull, so shooting just below the gun does wonders. Nearly all tanks have low bottom armor, therefore shooting directly below the tank with he works very well.

 

I used to play this game when MM was +/- 3 and it was fun. But then again, I like the role of the underdog.

 

Don't play harder, play smarter.

 

PS: And there is always Tier X in which you cannot fight any higher Tier tanks, yet I find it the least enjoyable Tier to play.


Edited by General_Jack_D_Ripper, 30 November 2020 - 11:04 AM.


tumppi776 #57 Posted 30 November 2020 - 11:23 AM

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IMO its not a problem meeting T9 with T7 once in a while

 

But what is a problem is having to wait 1minutes every time with T7 to get a battle at all - and then 90% of those - some nights even 100% are vs T8 and T9.

 

btw does the current matchmaker have flat T7 matchmaking?


Edited by tumppi776, 30 November 2020 - 11:23 AM.


Armoured_Shlong_Dong #58 Posted 01 December 2020 - 01:19 AM

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View PostIsharial, on 29 November 2020 - 04:30 PM, said:

 

it is "fair" in that everyone experiences the same.

 

a Tier 7 tank can still fight a T9, still damage it, and still kill it - if you play right. Yoloing a IS-3-II with a KV-3 is a stupid thing to do, but if you support your teams T9, you might well be able to flank it, shoot in the side and kill it. That doesnt mean that will always happen and so, the "2" key is a helpful hand.

the other part is playing to your strengths and making the enemy play in their weaker zones, or just fire HE at it if it is.. there are ways around it.

 

the same thing goes for a T5 T-34 fighting a T7 T29 and alot of other tanks. the T-34 would be stupid attacking the T29 when its hulldown, however it has advantages the T29 does not, namely mobility, camo and viewrange - playing to those strengths is key to defeating it.

 

"So basically a tank allowed which take no damage and deals enormous amounts of damage in any situation."  <-- so what i just said, makes this a moot point. - if your freely going to sit in front of a tank you cant damage who's fault is that? its yours. there are questionable tanks, but many are not invulnerable - 279e's frequently think they are until they get HEAT spammed or HE'd to death, and that is a very powerful tank.

 

 

"It's just occurred to me that basically a LVL9 tank is somewhat of an IMMORTAL to LVL7 tank" , and yet they are not.

 

"As for me I think higher LVLs must have reduced their HP or something or downgraded their armour or firepower and not allowing higher LVLs have all around advantages over lower tiers." that is the point of a higher tier tank. to have an advantage over lower tiers. it does however not make them completely immune. yolo your KV-3 across the field on Malinovka VS T5's and you will die just as quickly as if you were doing the same VS T9's. 

 

 

as to the bullet points below?

 

1) depends on the tank. you can still spot, de track, or simply hide away until you can see a side or rear shot and ambush them. you can pick a flank, but you must consider the chances of what might appear there.

yesterday i tooned with a fellow clan member and we took our IS-2S (mine) and VK45 south on Mannerhiem line in a T6-8 game - i would have gone north but we decided on south - south was exactly where the enemy T8 meds turned up whereas they could well have gone north.

 

i figured they would go there before the countdown stopped because top tier, and the advantage over some T7 heavies they'd have. we really should have camped back and let them take south.

 

we lost and failed that battle, and it could have gone alot better had we chosen a different path. its about where and what you do more than the tier your tank is.

 

2)"furfilling a role" is only suitable when your tank can do that role (as well as you personally) - no point taking a heavy tank to the town, when your alone and your playing something with little armour. Also no point trying to basecamp a Maus either as your armour (your only strength) would be easily countered by angles.

 

3) fair is that you also have the chance in doing so to others. - fair doesnt care about tier or tank. it treats all the same.

 

 

 

 

15:33 Added after 2 minute

 

+2MM has often given me some very nice results, and likewise being toptier hasnt resulted in a stomp either, in fact quite the opposite.

 

T8 - T10 is a huge gap, as is T6-T8, however that doesnt make your tank useless, if anything, some people simply ignore you simply because you are bottom tier - and thats when you can have some very good games

While I appreciate your effort at trying to contribute still I find it hard to follow your train of thoughts but than again maybe it's just me.

As to the topic I forgot to mention that I mean PURE SOLO RANDOM MOD experience where MOST of the time there's absolutely no TEAM WORK and you have to count only on yourself. I think our experiences are very different since you mentioned the fact you play in a clan I play all the time SOLO RANDOM.

Take your time , try to join random solo up to LVL7, play for a week and come back.

Don't mean to be rude but I prefer quality over quantity . Please take some time to re read your post after having written it and make sure it is up to the minimum standards of grammar.



Private_Miros #59 Posted 01 December 2020 - 01:26 AM

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View PostArmoured_Shlong_Dong, on 01 December 2020 - 12:19 AM, said:

While I appreciate your effort at trying to contribute still I find it hard to follow your train of thoughts but than again maybe it's just me.

As to the topic I forgot to mention that I mean PURE SOLO RANDOM MOD experience where MOST of the time there's absolutely no TEAM WORK and you have to count only on yourself. I think our experiences are very different since you mentioned the fact you play in a clan I play all the time SOLO RANDOM.

Take your time , try to join random solo up to LVL7, play for a week and come back.

Don't mean to be rude but I prefer quality over quantity . Please take some time to re read your post after having written it and make sure it is up to the minimum standards of grammar.

 

There is always team work. It's just that you need to play for the team, and not expect the team to do what you want. You adapt to 14 others, and not expect 14 others to adapt to you.



NUKLEAR_SLUG #60 Posted 01 December 2020 - 05:47 AM

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View PostArmoured_Shlong_Dong, on 01 December 2020 - 01:19 AM, said:

Don't mean to be rude but I prefer quality over quantity . Please take some time to re read your post after having written it and make sure it is up to the minimum standards of grammar.

 

You might want to consider putting down that bag of rocks what with that glass house you're stood in.







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