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Too much autoloaders and autoreloaders


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ziratulbihac #1 Posted 21 November 2020 - 09:34 PM

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I was fine with the fact that Autoloaders and Autoreloaders exist, they were an alternative to standard loading guns, but the more
time goes on.. we have more and more autoloaders and auto reloaders or reverse reloaders. 

 

First it was French tanks which was OK, then others came... but why does Wargaming keeps releasing more Autoloaders and Autoreloaders?

 

Those kind of guns are supposed to be max 1/5th or less population of tanks... It's not like in Cold War all tanks were Autoloaders.

 

Please wargaming STOP introducing new autoloaders!!!!!!! T77, Progetto C45 mod 71, British TD.... STOP IT


Edited by ziratulbihac, 21 November 2020 - 09:34 PM.


wremise #2 Posted 21 November 2020 - 11:48 PM

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Next CW reward tank -> Autoloader Chiftain.

GalmTwo #3 Posted 21 November 2020 - 11:50 PM

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If WG stops releasing autoloaders/autoreloaders, I will then have to actually learn how to play the game! :ohmy:

TheJungleBeast #4 Posted 22 November 2020 - 12:04 AM

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All part of the 5 min game meta.

kaneloon #5 Posted 22 November 2020 - 12:12 AM

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If we remove arties, ebr, reward op tanks, FVs, Strvs, scouts and now autoloaders ... few tanks would remain.

Obsessive_Compulsive #6 Posted 22 November 2020 - 12:36 AM

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View PostTheJungleBeast, on 22 November 2020 - 12:04 AM, said:

All part of the 5 min game meta.


There is no 5 min game meta.



Ghoststalker #7 Posted 22 November 2020 - 12:55 AM

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Auto(re)loaders are characterized by high burst damage, low DPM and long reload times. So you would presume that countering such a tank requires you to wait for them to spend the magazine and move in for the kill while they are helpless. You could also in theory, if nothing else was considered, trade them for damage and you would end up doing more damage over time. Yet in practice, it often doesn't work out that way.

 

Average casual players rarely have to opportunity or the skill to even get close to maximizing their DPM, so they don't often get caught in a situation where DPM matters all that much. Being able to burst damage seems not much different from just having high alpha. Having a magazine is particularly strong in groups, where individual enemy players can't easily push you once you need to reload. The only weakness that can't be easily circumvented is that they need to expose themselves for some time in order to effectively deliver that damage, but in theory they could always choose to sacrifice DPM to lower their overall risk. So you end up with a class of tank that is very capable of punishing mistakes, while also being somewhat capable of hiding its own weaknesses. That isn't to say that the mechanic is overpowered by any means, the weaknesses are there and they can be exploited.


But if there's one thing that I particularly dislike about autoloaders is that they are very difficult for a new player to deal with. A new player needs to know a lot of information to make an educated decision on what to do with such tanks. They need to know the magazine size and reload time to even begin countering them. But it becomes significantly more difficult knowing that there are not just autoloaders but autoreloaders that are distinctly different. Not only that, but with the new Italian heavies, you need to take into account their ability to shorten the downtime even more. While I don't consider it a huge issue, I can understand the sentiment of the OP that the number of autoloaders shouldn't become too dominant.

 


Edited by Ghoststalker, 22 November 2020 - 07:42 PM.


WingedArchon #8 Posted 22 November 2020 - 08:24 AM

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View PostGhoststalker, on 22 November 2020 - 12:55 AM, said:

. So you end up with a class of tank that is very capable of punishing mistakes, while also being somewhat capable of hiding its own weaknesses. That isn't to say that the mechanic is overpowered by any means, the weaknesses are there and they can be exploited..

This by far is my main 'issue' with these types of tanks.

The weaknesses rarely ever show in a random match for it to be a point.

So while theoretically they have certain weaknesses. In practise these weaknesses almost never show as true drawback in your average game becausebof the group strenghts that they synergize with very well.

Its the near perfect package of strenght vs weakness distribution, where the weaknesses can easily be viewed as moot while their strenghts are central in an average game.



PanTHeR_HuN #9 Posted 22 November 2020 - 08:55 AM

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View PostObsessive_Compulsive, on 22 November 2020 - 02:36 AM, said:


There is no 5 min game meta.

Yeah there is a 5 min game meta. 



pihip #10 Posted 22 November 2020 - 10:01 AM

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Autoreloaders are a mistake and are toxic for the game imho, as they remove one of the main weaknesses of autoloaders - if you want to refill your magazine, you have to manually force a reload and that means reloading the whole magazine, which can take anywhere from 7-8 to 50 seconds and can be a game changer.

Autoreloaders do not burden the player with choosing when to do so, because every time a shell is fired a new one automatically reloads.

 

Also let's not forget that a certain group of autoreloaders (Tier 8+ Italian medium tanks) does not have any of the common weaknesses associated with standard autoloaders (horrible gun handling and long aim time to name prominent ones), and that even among autoreloaders we have exceptions that for purely financial reasons work differently (IS-3A sold in loot boxes with the autoreloader working in reverse, first shell reloads the fastest).

 

One can hope the Italian heavies won't be as cancerous as the mediums, but by now my trust in WG is more or less exhausted.

 

And well, as others have already said, high burst damage = killing enemy tanks faster = shorter games = the "5-minute game meta" which is a thing, WG themselves admit the average duration of a random battle is 6-7 minutes.



WingedArchon #11 Posted 22 November 2020 - 11:04 AM

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View Postpihip, on 22 November 2020 - 10:01 AM, said:

Autoreloaders are a mistake and are toxic for the game imho, as they remove one of the main weaknesses of autoloaders - if you want to refill your magazine, you have to manually force a reload and that means reloading the whole magazine, which can take anywhere from 7-8 to 50 seconds and can be a game changer.
Autoreloaders do not burden the player with choosing when to do so, because every time a shell is fired a new one automatically reloads.

Which leads me to: I am okay with the French having the Autoloaders, it was something that made them unique, but they had one very big and aparent drawback. 'Reloading/  for them means: The entire magazine. which often is 2 to 3 times that of a normal/conventional cannon. Also, the Magazine can only have 1 shelltype.
But then came the rest and italians... and the mechanic was no longer something unique, but also butchered it in what balanced it.



nc30_guy #12 Posted 22 November 2020 - 11:29 AM

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It will be plagued with them over the holidays.

Edited by nc30_guy, 22 November 2020 - 11:30 AM.


Obsessive_Compulsive #13 Posted 22 November 2020 - 11:51 AM

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View PostPanTHeR_HuN, on 22 November 2020 - 08:55 AM, said:

Yeah there is a 5 min game meta. 


Your survival rate is too low. live longer and your average battle time will increase. Interesting that is it not?

Server average sits between 6-7 mins depending on server and given the data is 19 months old.

My personal average for the last 10,000 battles is 6:48.

 

Given the lack of weakspots on many heavies and even some mediums and the introduction of things like the 268v blyatista!,430u,279 It would seem illogical to assume WG is aiming to lower the battle duration. Don't forget that the longer the battle lasts the more shots can be traded and the more gold can be fired. Popular opinion is that fast games = more cash for WG but trruth is that there is a curve of profit and 5 minutes sits at the downside of the curve.

 

If you want some formulae to help understand that curve let me know.

 

 

 

 

 

 



Galan7891 #14 Posted 22 November 2020 - 02:26 PM

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View PostWingedArchon, on 22 November 2020 - 11:04 AM, said:

Which leads me to: I am okay with the French having the Autoloaders, it was something that made them unique, but they had one very big and aparent drawback. 'Reloading/  for them means: The entire magazine. which often is 2 to 3 times that of a normal/conventional cannon. Also, the Magazine can only have 1 shelltype.
But then came the rest and italians... and the mechanic was no longer something unique, but also butchered it in what balanced it.


The Italian/ruski autoreloaders also are limited by a single shell type per magazine.Changing ammo types in an is2-2 or a Pantera is almost as detrimental as changing ammo in a BC...unless you fire early and try to stay in a fight with even worse DPM than usual.



Rakii #15 Posted 22 November 2020 - 02:32 PM

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View PostObsessive_Compulsive, on 22 November 2020 - 12:36 AM, said:

There is no 5 min game meta.

The game has become faster than before you can´t deny it and that´s bcos of powercreep (faster, stronger tanks than ever).



LCVNH #16 Posted 22 November 2020 - 03:05 PM

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Very true, and rumors are that WG will bring two autoloaders to lootboxes - Italian and British. 



saxsan4 #17 Posted 22 November 2020 - 03:11 PM

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as soon as WG tries to introduce British tanks you all complain 

 

also there isn't 'too many autolders' its a MYHT

 

They exited in real life and were experimented with , we dont have ENOUGH



Obsessive_Compulsive #18 Posted 22 November 2020 - 04:10 PM

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View PostRakii, on 22 November 2020 - 02:32 PM, said:

The game has become faster than before you can´t deny it and that´s bcos of powercreep (faster, stronger tanks than ever).


Faster than what and since when? any evidence with that conjecture?



saxsan4 #19 Posted 22 November 2020 - 04:24 PM

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View PostObsessive_Compulsive, on 22 November 2020 - 03:10 PM, said:


Faster than what and since when? any evidence with that conjecture?


people make this claim and never provide any substantial evidence 



PanTHeR_HuN #20 Posted 22 November 2020 - 05:35 PM

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View PostObsessive_Compulsive, on 22 November 2020 - 01:51 PM, said:


Your survival rate is too low. live longer and your average battle time will increase. Interesting that is it not?

Server average sits between 6-7 mins depending on server and given the data is 19 months old.

My personal average for the last 10,000 battles is 6:48.

 

Given the lack of weakspots on many heavies and even some mediums and the introduction of things like the 268v blyatista!,430u,279 It would seem illogical to assume WG is aiming to lower the battle duration. Don't forget that the longer the battle lasts the more shots can be traded and the more gold can be fired. Popular opinion is that fast games = more cash for WG but trruth is that there is a curve of profit and 5 minutes sits at the downside of the curve.

 

If you want some formulae to help understand that curve let me know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't care about my dying or survival rate. sometimes I fall down from cliff for fun and

die. It isn't about that. My win rate is also decent as you see, I am saying what I see. The battles are finishing in 4 or 5 minutes different than old times. 






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