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BDR G1R and BDR G1P


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Poll: BDR G1R and BDR G1P (36 members have cast votes)

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Should G1 P be tier 4? (with a B1 turret and 47mm gun)

  1. Yes (22 votes [61.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.11%

  2. No (14 votes [38.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.89%

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Catarraz #1 Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:04 AM

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So I decided to make a discussion thread on the upcoming BDR Brothers, the future french tier 5 mediums G1R and G1P.

The BDR G1P and G1R were very modern tank designs for their era, especially the BDR G1R. But with the BDR G1B being considered kind of a flop by some, I thought the french tier 5 meds deserved some look-into. (personally I liked the G1B's 90mmDCA gun, but that's another story)

I'll start with the BDR G1R.
The BDR G1R was to be, as believed, one of the most modern tanks of it's time, projected by Louis Renault himself,  weighting around 30 tons. It had modern torsion bar suspension, meaning it might have a good top speed, but it's apparently old differential might also mean that it will have a slow acceleration. It was originally planned to mount a Schneider 47mm gun, so we should expect this to be it's stock armament, and as it has the same stock turret as the AMX40 upgraded turret, I think we should also expect the 75mm SA32 tho I think it might be kinda undergunned at tier 5 up to this point. It was mentioned that fortunately the BDR G1R could have a much larger turret ring to fit a bigger turret, namely the ARL3, the BDR G1B's upgraded turret. This meant it could also mount a long 75mm gun, which one however is not specified. One thing that cought my attention is the spaced side armour, meaning it might have HE resistance, (rendering HE even more useless than it is right now) though I am skeptical about WG actually implementing this. Apparently it was also meant to have a gun stabilisation and a semi-automatic loader, meaning it could already have an advantage ovr the other tier 5s meds. So, as a "revolutionary" tank for it's time, personally, if it's more maneuverable than the G1B and gets the 90mmDCA, I think it could very well compete with the other nation's tier 5 meds, and I will be a happy man.

The Late-Coming Engine Update (from the next page)

Quote

Quoting wiki

On 1 April 1940 a subcommission received Renault's head engineer Serre, who argued it would be folly to discontinue the Char G1 project as it was so near fruition. The first armour set would be manufactured by Schneider in July 1940, the suspension and gearbox were almost finished, a new 350 hp engine was being tested (he didn't mention this had met much resistance from Louis Renault, who thought the existing engine used in the Char B1 was sufficient, if uprated). The weight would be lower than 35 tons, perhaps as low as 32 ton. All theoretical studies could be completed in May and the first vehicle in September. The Commission, not as easily swayed as the previous one after the manipulation by Renault had become known, answered that the prototype could of course be finished as ordered, but that production of the type, despite its interesting advanced technological features, was excluded.[33] The armistice of June 1940 ended all development.

However, in 2008 French armour historian Stéphane Ferrard proposed an alternative interpretation, arguing that the fact that the Renault project was singled out for continued development shows that, had the course of events not prevented it, very likely the Char G1R would have been taken into production anyway, probably with the ARL 3 turret and a 400 hp engine.[36] Further logical improvement steps would then have been the fitting of the three-man ARL 42 turret, followed by the change to a Long 40 75 mm gun, resulting for 1942 in a tank type that would have been the equal in armament and mobility to actually built medium tanks of that date, such as the Soviet T-34 and American M4 Sherman, but with more technologically advanced features, like a range finder and gun stabilisation, foreboding the postwar AMX 30.



So there you have it. A 350 hp engine or perhaps a Char B1 engine as stock, upgraded to a 400hp engine to give it mobility like a Sherman or T-34.

With the upgraded turret of a BDR G1B allowing for a possible 90mm, with the mobility of a Sherman, advanced features like gun stabilization (accuracy) and semi automatic loader (RoF) I think this is quite possibly the most potential tank of the french tech tree let alone of the whole tier 5 meds.
(Lets now hope for WG to show some faith (if not pity))

Posted Image

Good pic from a much earlier post by Souroy.
Posted Image
Posted Image

The BDR G1P
P for Poniatowski, the man who designed it (probably wasn't french) I think this will be a rather interesting medium. Tho interesting might not prove to also mean "good"...
It was a medium, but like the Char B1, it was to have a 75mm gun in the hull and an APX4 turret with a 47mmSA35 gun, and so far, without the multi-gun option, the Char (as well as the Lee, for that matter) have proven to be frustrating to drive.
Started life (or almost did) with a weak 120hp Hispano-Suiza engine, tho it was later upgraded to a 280hp Hispano-Suiza engine meaning it could reach a top speed of 40km/h.
Interestingly, it was planned to have the ARL3 turret (BDR G1B's upgraded turret)  mounted so it could mount a 75mm gun in the turret, however, this called for a complete redesign of the hull, and I doubt even WG would do this.
Armour was 57mm at the front, 35mm sides, and 40mm rear, though there were also additional 20mm side skirts. And a bit of sloped armour at the top.
So basically a medium version of the Char B1. As I said, might be an interesting piece of a tank...

There are two versions of the G1P, the one depicted in the drawing is different form the one in the photographs, but it is obvious that it will probably be the latter to be modelled into the game.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Thanks for reading, and hope to see feedback!

wildshade #2 Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:47 AM

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G1R

Posted Image

G1L

Posted Image

Catarraz #3 Posted 11 March 2012 - 09:20 AM

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Oh good. Finally some feedback  :)

I have seen those, I just wonder why they want to implement G1 L which is the one with virtualy no info on...
WG must be afraid (with reason) to add another M3 Lee/Char style tank to the game...

wildshade #4 Posted 11 March 2012 - 03:31 PM

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View PostUMM, on 11 March 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

..
I have seen those, I just wonder why they want to implement G1 L which is the one with virtualy no info on...
..
But why not, UMM ? It doesn't hurt anyone, imho. We have many vehicles in-game which didn't even left the desk, or even vehicles and equipment that are half-fantasied by wg. More diversity, exotics, I like it. And according to this , it's going to be a premium tank.
Ofc if the tree will ever be released or it may be changed also, knowing wg..

About Poniatowski G1P.

I don't know much about them, but Il just share what I found:

http://pic4.ru/image...ada29388f2.jpeg

http://pic4.ru/stora...0cc49a861f.jpeg

http://pic4.ru/stora...158c1628b2d.jpg

Spoiler                     

Turret from Somua/B1 makes me sad at Tier 5  <_<

wildshade #5 Posted 11 March 2012 - 03:31 PM

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omg double post, sorz. requesting exterminatus here.

Catarraz #6 Posted 11 March 2012 - 06:14 PM

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Those are some nice pictures you got there.  :)

After you showed me thos thumbnails, I thought they were going release the G1 L instead of G1 P thus my surprise, as I said, there is a lot less info on the G1 L (none) than on the G1 P...

I'll just wait until multi-gun update comes out to try G1 P, like you said, I don't really think APX turret in tier 5 is there to make anyone happy... Tier 4 might have been a better option perhaps...?
On the other hand, they do say they were experimenting with a 105mm Howitzer on the Char...

Dragonite #7 Posted 11 March 2012 - 07:00 PM

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I must say that this cupola with HUGE glass windows is really exotic idea. In fact 3rd picture in wildshade post show why ;)

wildshade #8 Posted 11 March 2012 - 07:27 PM

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In recent interviews they said the multi-turret support is not in priority. If ever going to make it..
And about turret, even on tier 4 its outclassed. I think you played B1 and know what im talking about. It cannot mount a decent gun with capable fire-power for tier 4 and up, thus if this turret will be the only choice on the G1P - this tank is a moving wreck.
Any way, im more interested in G1R, it also resembles to me somewhat of a Tank Grotte. We only can wait and guess what there is to come in full french release..

Tigger3 #9 Posted 11 March 2012 - 08:38 PM

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Some info about the various G1's 'End of 1937 the project was renamed char G1 and all prototypes are then authorized an official designation:   Lorraine: The G1, Renault: G1 R, Baudet Donon Rousel: G1 B, Fouga: G1 F, SEAM: G1 P.'

There are some photos of the G1R mock up that Renault did as well. Its in French but Boogle translate and Babelfish can be used to give a good enough translation.

Char Francais

Catarraz #10 Posted 12 March 2012 - 06:42 PM

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Poll is up.
Seriously, G1 P has no business in tier 5.

BarryFerguson #11 Posted 13 March 2012 - 03:15 PM

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G1L looks like a knock-off version of a Churchill

KasparStavro #12 Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:34 AM

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"P for Poniatowski, the man who designed it (probably wasn't french) I think this will be a rather interesting medium."

the guy was Polish , we have many ties with France.

anyone knows when were going to use those tanks?

cant wait to play them :)

Waroch #13 Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:35 AM

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I support this.
We had actually put it on tier IV in the revised tech tree, because it would be too weak for t5 :Smile_honoring:

Catarraz #14 Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:59 PM

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View PostWaroch, on 15 March 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

I support this.
We had actually put it on tier IV in the revised tech tree, because it would be too weak for t5 :Smile_honoring:

Spoiler                     

What's a B40?
Whats's an FCM 50t?
What's an AMX 70t?
When will more french tanks be released?
Why doesn't WG adopt this tech tree?
It's epic.

Waroch #15 Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:28 PM

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the B40 was a project of a heavy tank derived from the B1 series. The layout was similar : a 105mm howitzer in the hull, a two-man turret armed with a 47mm gun (derived from the towed AT 47mm, much more powerful than the SA35).
Armor : 80/60/60mm.
The program kept going secretly under the occupation and was used after the liberation for the ARL44 (undercarriage).

FCM 50t was, along with the Somua SM, a competitor to AMX 50 for the post-war 50 tons medium tank project. A sort of an overgrown AMX M4 with 120mm front armour.

AMX 70t was yet another version of the AMX 50.

But we lacked some info when we did this, so it's kind of outdated now :) i doubt the FCM50t  would be relevant, probably identical to the AMX M4 (1948).



But a few ideas should be implemented imho, like the G1P in T4 or the AMX40 in T5 (i'm sure this one would make a very decent T5 tank instead of a super-nerfed pseudo T4 tank). Same for the ultra-light ELC or the alternative TD branch ;)

Sirgutz #16 Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:30 PM

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Posted Image
AMX70t
Posted Image
FCM 50t its like the AMX M4
Posted Image
B40
Armor: Hull: 80/80/60 - Turret: ?/?/? (two-man turret)
47mm SA37 or 75mm L/30 (Turret) - 105mm (Hull)
Max Speed: 40 km/h - 40~45t

Catarraz #17 Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:34 PM

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View PostWaroch, on 15 March 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

the AMX40 in T5 (i'm sure this one would make a very decent T5 tank instead of a super-nerfed pseudo T4 tank).

B40 sounds like good then  :)

But why do you believe AMX40 would make a decent tier 5? Where was it nerfed? It's 75mm SA32 is a bit undergunned if compared to any other tier 5 top gun, and well, it's tiny.

Waroch #18 Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:27 PM

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simply because a short-sized, well armored tank equiped with a reasonnable sized 75mm is waay too much for T4. So they nerfed it like hell.


But in T5... Give it a fairly good acceleration, which would enable it to reach its top speed of 50km/h with relative ease... Something Sherman-like perhaps. Un-nerf the 75mm, make it more or less the standard of the stock 75mm of the Sherman, slightly better perhaps.
Then the AMX 40 would be indeed inferior to the others in terms of firepower, but not that horrible if you shoot the flanks, and it would have an excellent mobility/protection ratio. Currently the AMX40 is so slow it can't avoid a shot and everybody can aim quietly at its weakspots; the same baby zipping around at 50km/h would be another story, especially when you consider its nice rounded shapes and low silhouette ;)

AMX40 would have been a tank of the generation of the G1, Sherman, T-34 and the sort, T4 is too low for it

Tupinambis #19 Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:39 PM

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IMO they'll all do fine as tier 5 meds. Just give them a solid 75mm gun with decent accuracy and they'll all be good to go, even with the underwhelming armor. The G1B already goes way overboard of what it was supposed to be equipped with... though it is a bit UP at the moment.

Catarraz #20 Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:56 PM

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View PostWaroch, on 15 March 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

simply because a short-sized, well armored tank equiped with a reasonnable sized 75mm is waay too much for T4. So they nerfed it like hell.


But in T5... Give it a fairly good acceleration, which would enable it to reach its top speed of 50km/h with relative ease... Something Sherman-like perhaps. Un-nerf the 75mm, make it more or less the standard of the stock 75mm of the Sherman, slightly better perhaps.
Then the AMX 40 would be indeed inferior to the others in terms of firepower, but not that horrible if you shoot the flanks, and it would have an excellent mobility/protection ratio. Currently the AMX40 is so slow it can't avoid a shot and everybody can aim quietly at its weakspots; the same baby zipping around at 50km/h would be another story, especially when you consider its nice rounded shapes and low silhouette ;)

AMX40 would have been a tank of the generation of the G1, Sherman, T-34 and the sort, T4 is too low for it

But as you might understand, you can't exactly compare an AMX40 to PzIVs mounting 75mm L70 or M4 shermans with 76mm guns...
pzIVs, for example, started life as infantry tanks, while pzIII took care of armoured vehicles, and the AMX40 was a "cavalry tank" meant to act much as a pzIII, and no doubt it would have been a nasty weapon in the battle of france, but, like the PzIII, it was small and mounted a small gun, and was surpassed by the bigger, more potential infantry tank PzIV (which then was called "medium"). you don't compare it to PzIVs which mount 75mm L/70 guns in this game, you don't make it's top gun the equivalent stock gun of another tank in the same tier.

I do agree with you when you say it could be a good tank with better speed and agility (and better matchmaking), I'm just advising you not to say too much about AMX 40 being tier 5 when already so many people hate it as a 4 tier.




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